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TRANSLATION OF QURAN
BY DR. QAMAR ZAMAN
Translation Status
آیات
سورۃ
نمبر
1-7 الفَاتِحَة -1
1-286 البَقَرَة -2
1-200 آل عِمرَان -3
1-176 النِّسَاء -4
1-120 المَائدة -5
1-165 الاٴنعَام -6
1-206 الاٴعرَاف -7
1-75 الاٴنفَال -8
1-129 التّوبَة -9
1-109 یُونس -10
1-123 هُود -11
1-111 یُوسُف -12
1-43 الرّعد -13
1-52 إبراهیم -14
1-99 الحِجر -15
1-128 النّحل -16
1-111 بنیٓ اسرآئیل / الإسرَاء -17
1-110 الکهف -18
1-98 مَریَم -19
1-135 طٰه -20
1-112 الاٴنبیَاء -21
1-78 الحَجّ -22
1-118 المؤمنون -23
1-64 النُّور -24
1-77 الفُرقان -25
1-227 الشُّعَرَاء -26
1-93 النَّمل -27
1-88 القَصَص -28
1-69 العَنکبوت -29
1-60 الرُّوم -30
1-34 لقمَان -31
1-30 السَّجدَة -32
1-73 الاٴحزَاب -33
1-54 سَبَإ -34
1-45 فَاطِر -35
1-83 یسٓ -36
1-182 الصَّافات -37
1-88 صٓ -38
1-75 الزُّمَر -39
1-85 المؤمن / غَافر -40
1-54 حٰمٓ السجدة / فُصّلَت -41
1-54 القَمَر -54
Read Now


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QURAN
UN-QURANIC BELIEFS
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NARGIS, MOAZZAM, MUJEEB, WAQAR, NAEEM, ET AL. YOU CONTINUE TO AVOID, TIME AND AGAIN, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS REGARDING AL-ISLAM. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO STOP AVOIDING MY A-F, QUESTIONS?
Add Your Comments  Question by: DHULQARNAIN On 16 November 2011
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Comments by: Nargis2 On 16 November 2011Report Abuse

As you continue to avoid answering my questions and are not able to provide PROOFS, your reaction is understandable. If you have Quraniq belief, and you are a Quranist, then you should be able to FOLLOW the Quran when it said provide your proofs.  
 
Thats UNQURANIQ in fact, to assert something about Allah and his book, to ascribe words, concepts and meanings to ayahs, when its not written there.  
 
To claim the prophet asked others for proofs, but didn't provide any himself, is UNQURANIQ BELIEF  
 
To claim Gabriel is revealing the Quran when every ayah said it is Allah who revealed it, is UNQURANIQ BELIEF

* Apples are given to you through a process established by Allah (Allah gave it to you)  
* science is given to you through a process established by Allah (Allah gave it to you)  
* information about universe is given to you through a process established by Allah (Allah gave it to you)  
* Even the QURAN, the revelation you are reading today is given through a process established by Allah (Allah gave it to you)  
 
* EVERYTHING from Allah is given to you through a process he have established-- (Allah gave it to you, through his laws and methods sat by himself)  
 
This is Baizne Allah, which you FAILED TO UNDERSTAND and even worse, DON'T WANT TO UNDERSTAND. You lack the ability to comprehend our answers, so you in your own mind twist it to mean that we haven't answered your questions. You have to decode a question before you are able to answer it, which means you have to study our replies and study the references we provide. That's why the Quran is NOT talking to you, because you are more eager to win a debate instead of learning the Quran- Sad but true

YOU and your like-minded people think ONLY his message is given through an angel  
 
well then prove it!  
 
Allah's science is speaking for itself and it is proving itself go ahead and prove your claim regarding his book.Prove Gabriel as an angel landing on the mind of the prophet.  
 
Waiting for your proofs, the Quran is not your personal playground, keep it clean from your personal views and concepts.  
 
وَآتَاكُمْ مِنْ كُلِّ مَا سَأَلْتُمُوهُ  
He has aleady provided what you are asking for.


Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 16 November 2011Report Abuse
***NARGIS:Waiting for your proofs, the Quran is not your personal playground, keep it clean from your personal views and concepts.***  
 
Your above statement, by ANY definition, is a self-confession. Your avoiding my A-F questions certainly establishes this.  
 
Anyway, I’m not asking you about an angel now, I’m asking to you simply address the A-F, questions. Why do you continue to avoid answering? What are you so terrified of? What? I already addressed your questions and gave you a detailed proof/analysis regarding angel/Jibreel on the other threads. You, out of hand, reject the proof and there is nothing I can do about that, but I did answer fully and directly. There is no proof you will accept Nargis and Allah speaks to you and those like you:  
 
2:145...and even if they see every sign/AYAT they will not believe in it;...  
 
You, on the other hand, have yet to address, fully and directly, my A-F questions. Why do you continue to avoid answering them? What are you so terrified of, Nargis…that you don’t know what you’re talking about and your un-Quranic assertions will be exposed? If so, then you're correct, because that is exactly what will happen and you know it. Listen, having to face Allah for un-Quranic assertions...will be a great deal more terrifying, ya think?  
 
Dhulqarnain-  

Comments by: Nargis2 On 17 November 2011Report Abuse
You assert that Allah did not intervene directly with the Prophet (and you’re correct) nor did He send a messenger-malaika to the Prophet. How then did the Prophet know exactly what words to write down to compile Al-Quran and then state that what he compiled was, in fact, the Words of Allah? What did he "study in the laws of nature/universe" to give him that ability? a)You assert that Allah did not intervene directly with the Prophet (and you’re correct) nor did He send a messenger-malaika to the Prophet. How then did the Prophet know exactly what words to write down to compile Al-Quran and then state that what he compiled was, in fact, the Words of Allah? What did he "study in the laws of nature/universe" to give him that ability?

He studied the laws of nature, the nature of living beings, how they function and the division of resources among them, and how that is necessary in order to have a well-balanced development/ growth. Everything available for the senses- When nature reveals itself, its hidden information, it is wahy. When the human being understands it, it is being nazooled in his mind, revealing itself to his mind, being comprehended by his mind. A scientist cannot sit at home and make up information by himself; the law of Allah allows achievement/results by efforts.  
 
BE IZINALLAH اللّهِ بِإِذْنِ =according to Allah’s law = Course of process, way/passage of progress, knowledge obtained through the process of observation ponderings reflections cogitations-  
 
The message is decoded and comprehended as a result of be izniallah, and when understood, It’s put into words by the Rusool himself. Only parrots are dictated, Rusools are using their head and making efforts to understand the message given for the betterment of mankind.  
 
How do we know this is the message words from Allah? By its content, its content is its own judge.

b) If Allah did not tell him anything directly or indirectly how then could he claim that what he was preaching, was, in fact, the Words of Allah? What did he "study in the laws of nature and from pondering the universe" enable him to do this?

The Rusools observed the only way of progression is peace, reconciliation in mind society, way of living,, everything. Method to achieve piece and progress is illustrated in the nature, through the division of resources/food nourishments and so on. Why is the division unbalanced among human beings but not among birds and ants? The bright human being observed that and asked for 1:5. إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ  
 
So the construction of harmony and peace is in the nature, and it is well functioning, demonstrated through living beings... That is why the “idea” is not personal, it is a law sat by Allah in order to develop. It is like Einstein would say HE invented the gravity…..

c)Given that Allah did not contact him directly or indirectly how then could the Prophet claim to have the Words of Allah?

God contacted him through his laws, through the way of process, but they did not have a phone conversation where Allah spoke Arabic. Nor did he send an Arabic speaking angel landing on the prophet’s minds- A scientist work hard to find knowledge; the prophets are not robots dictated by angels and not using their head. The Quran is calling itself truth, truth is what is verified, Gabriel as an angel is not to be verified. And the Quran does not need people to believe in it based on conjectures or unproven claims, it is here for the person who want The path of 1:7 those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked anger or of those who are astray.  
 
Paths are to walk on.They won't lead you anywhere if you sit home and believe they exist …..

d)Given that Allah did not contact him directly or indirectly how then could the Prophet claim that what he had was a perfect book/free of error or mistake?

If it/the book is providing information which is not to be proven, or want us to blindly believe in angels at prophets minds, the questions of error and mistake does not even occur, because we don’t know whether angels are landing on prophets minds or not, we just have to blindly accept it and then believe it. so did Gabriel land on prophets mind or did he not, is this claim true or wrong, is this a fact or an error? We won't know as it is asking us to believe in it without proving it- Such a book cannot be qualified to be true or proven, it is basing its existence on conjecture planted in the readers mind, just like other religions.  
 
However, something from God does not need our blind faith, He is able to prove his claims.Only liars don't provide proofs.  
 
The method given in Quran is practiced in the nature even today, the method given in the Quran is to act upon and achieve results. And it is the Book that is claiming it is perfect and free of error/mistakes.  
 
Its content will decide if it is free of errors or mistakes, its content will judge itself, and you and me are able to walk on Sirate mustaqeem and see for our self if its message/method is fruitful or not. The prophet did not talk to us directly, the book did- Prove it wrong if you can. …..

e) Where did Al-Kitab/al-Quran come from in the first place for the Prophet to ponder/conceive in his mind?

through beizne Allah, don’t know its details 17:85 …..

F) By severing the connection between Allah and the Prophet, and stating he "studied the laws of nature and pondering the universe" and that's how he got the Words of Allah/Al-Quran, is to make THE UNIVERSE/THE LAWS OF NATURE THE SOURCE OF AL-QURAN AND NOT ALLAH and makes "Muhammad" THE AUTHOR OF AL-QURAN AND NOT ALLAH, do you understand this?

Allah is the one who prearranged his message in the universe,no mater what method he used, Allah is the originator, He is the sender or source of information and laws HE GAVE US. The Quran is not more from Allah if it is given to the prophet from an invisible angel rather than from his created universe.  
 
Why Allah is the source of the Quran ONLY if Gabriel, an invisible angel, is coming with the message,and not if the visible established universe is conveying it? What kind of logic are you using?  
 
*Invisible angel bringing a message  
 
vs  
 
*Universe is bringing a message  
 
Why is the source of the message changed if Allah's own creation brings you HIS message, instead of an invisible angel,,,not even verified by the Quran....?  
 
why did he not use angels to give us apples and bananas, math or science, biology or zoology?  
 
Are the source of fruits and information not Allah because it is given to us through a course of process?  
It is the SENDER who decide what way of communication he want to use, not me or you.  
 
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?  
 
Now your turn to provide proofs and answer my questions can’t wait to meet the Angel...zzzzzz …..And tell me exactly what you tried to do in this video, couldn't wait to grab ur medal :P :P :-D  
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtUAMsEPP7w ????  
 
(Readers: Ref to the Quran are spread all over the blog, search for Jibreel and read the books plz)


Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 17 November 2011Report Abuse
NARGIS,  
 
I'm pleased the you've responded at last! What took you so long?  
 
I will ponder over your reply and get back to you soon.  
 
Dhulqarnain-

Comments by: Mujeeb On 18 November 2011Report Abuse
Mr. Dhulqarnain: I think you intentionally avoided my following reply to your A-F, on the thread generated for QURANIC TERMINOLOGIES".  
Can you tell, why you avoiding to participate/discussing the QURANIC TERMINOLOGIES YOU AGREED UPON??  
a) How then did the Prophet know exactly what words to write down to compile Al-Quran and then state that what he compiled was, in fact, the Words of Allah? What did he "study in the laws of nature/pondering on the universe" to give him that ability?  
** All Prophets (Nabi/Rasool) GOT/WILL GET and still GETTING "ALROOH/ AL-KITAB/AL-QURAN" ( the compiled worlds of Allah) as it is, from the very first day.  
 
b) If Allah did not tell him anything directly or indirectly how then could he claim that what he was preaching, was, in fact, the Words of Allah? What did he "study in the laws of nature and from pondering the universe" enable him to do this?  
** Allah didn't tell me any thing, even then I believe (by my research study and analyzing efforts)that, this Al-Kitab is from Allah, because of its error free contents and unique style.  
c) Given that Allah did not contact him directly or indirectly how then could the Prophet claim to have the Words of Allah?  
**It is explained in (b).  
d) c) Given that Allah did not contact him directly or indirectly how then could the Prophet claim that what he had was a perfect book/free of error or mistake?  
** The Human intellect analyzed,compared and pondered into it and the universe as well.  
e) Where did Al-Kitab/al-Quran come from in the first place for the Prophet to ponder/conceive in his mind?  
** We don't know (verse 17/85)  
f) By severing the connection between Allah and the Prophet, and stating he "studied the laws of nature and pondering the universe" and that's how he got the Words of Allah/Al-Quran, is to make THE UNIVERSE/THE LAWS OF NATURE THE SOURCE OF AL-QURAN AND NOT ALLAH and makes "Muhammad" THE AUTHOR OF AL-QURAN AND NOT ALLAH, do you understand this?  
** I don't agree what you asserted in (f), also no body from Aastana claimed so, plz re-read and try to understand Aastana version.

Comments by: Mubashir Syed On 20 November 2011Report Abuse
Dear Nargis, very well presented in simple words, I think this kinna effort can move not only MINDS but MOUNTAINS as well...  
 
Note: Message is really very simple if someone sprouts a wish to understand.... if am not wrong even Quran says...."And We have made message simple/easy to understand"  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 25 November 2011Report Abuse
PEACE NARGIS,  
 
CC MOAZZAM AND THEIR SUPPORTERS.  
 
Please pardon the my long absence, but I'm back now. You didn't think that I had forgotten you good folks now did you? :D  
 
I couldn't wait to get back here to swat down like flies your crazy notions :D  
 
DHULQARNAIN: a) You assert that Allah did not intervene directly with the Prophet (and you’re correct) nor did He send a messenger-malaika to the Prophet. How then did the Prophet know exactly what words to write down to compile Al-Quran and then state that what he compiled was, in fact, the Words of Allah? What did he "study in the laws of nature/universe" to give him that ability? How then could he claim that what he was preaching, was, in fact, the Words of Allah? What did he "study in the laws of nature and from pondering the universe" enable him to do this?  
 
***NARGIS: He studied the laws of nature, the nature of living beings, how they function and the division of resources among them, and how that is necessary in order to have a well-balanced development/ growth. Everything available for the senses- When nature reveals itself, its hidden information, it is wahy. When the human being understands it, it is being nazooled in his mind, revealing itself to his mind, being comprehended by his mind. A scientist cannot sit at home and make up information by himself; the law of Allah allows achievement/results by efforts. BE IZINALLAH=according to Allah’s law = Course of process, way/passage of progress, knowledge obtained through the process of observation ponderings reflections cogitations- The message is decoded and comprehended as a result of be izniallah, and when understood, It’s put into words by the Rusool himself. Only parrots are dictated, Rusools are using their head and making efforts to understand the message given for the betterment of mankind. How do we know this is the message words from Allah? By its content, its content is its own judge. Allah is the one who prearranged his message in the universe,no mater what method he used, Allah is the originator, He is the sender or source of information and laws HE GAVE US. The Quran is not more from Allah if it is given to the prophet from an invisible angel rather than from his created universe. Why Allah is the source of the Quran ONLY if Gabriel, an invisible angel, is coming with the message,and not if the visible established universe is conveying it? What kind of logic are you using? *Invisible angel bringing a message vs *Universe is bringing a message Why is the source of the message changed if Allah's own creation brings you HIS message, instead of an invisible angel,,,not even verified by the Quran....? why did he not use angels to give us apples and bananas, math or science, biology or zoology? Are the source of fruits and information not Allah because it is given to us through a course of process? It is the SENDER who decide what way of communication he want to use, not me or you. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?***  
 
As you well know scientists study the laws of nature/the universe and are constantly making mistakes and correcting themselves. I Think you will agree with me when I say that, from the human experience anyway, the laws of nature/the universe are infinite—some VISIBLE and some NOT VISIBLE. It would have been impossible for The Prophet to study and comprehend laws which he could not even see, hear, smell, taste, or touch. Given these realities then, it would have been impossible for the Prophet to study all of the laws of nature/the universe, decode them, and then come up with the a book which is free from mistakes and error. Even in Al-Quran The Prophet is cited making a mistake in judgment:  
 
80:1-2 He frowned and turned away, Because the blind man came to him…80:8-10 And as to him who comes to thee striving hard, And he fears —To him thou payest no regard.  
 
Given this, obvious error on the part of the Prophet (and there are more in Al-Quran), how do you or anyone know that he didn’t scornfully treat a particular law of Allah in the same fashion when he compiled Al-Quran?  
 
Tell me/us what law or laws did he study which enabled him to speak of something which he could not have possibly known, past or present? For example, take the conversation between Ibrahim and his father 21:51 -64 or the conversation between Allah’s Servant and Moses (found in Sura 18) or the conversation between Dhulqarnain and people he went to (found in Sura 18)? How did the Prophet know of these conversations? Look at this example regarding the future/ afterlife:  
 
7:43…and they shall say: All praise is due to Allah Who guided us to this, and we would not have found the way had it not been that Allah had guided us; certainly the apostles of our Lord brought the truth; and it shall be cried out to them that this is the garden of which you are made heirs for what you did.  
 
What law in nature/the universe revealed verbatim conversations to the Prophet? What law do you know of which reveals verbatim conversations?  
 
***NARGIS: Now your turn to provide proofs and answer my questions can’t wait to meet the Angel...zzzzzz …..And tell me exactly what you tried to do in this video, couldn't wait to grab ur medal: P: P :-D***  
 
Your entire response gives whole new depth and breadth to the term—bizarre. So that you know, all of your above descriptions of the malaika are YOUR OWN. I do not subscribe to any of them, except that, they are not visible, but then neither are gamma rays.  
 
Anyway…  
 
42:51 And it is not vouchsafed to a mortal that Allah should speak to him, except by revelation or from behind a veil, or by sending a messenger and revealing BY HIS PERMISSION what He pleases. Surely He is High, Wise.  
 
22:75 Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.  
 
2:97 Say: Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel — for surely he revealed/brought//nazaled it to thy mind BY ALLAH’S  
PERMISSION, verifying that which is before it and a guidance and glad tidings for the believers.  
 
81:19 Surely it is the word of a bountiful Messenger,  
 
81:20 The possessor of strength, established in the presence of the Lord of the Throne,  
 
81:21 One to be obeyed, and faithful.  
 
8:20 O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger and turn not away from him while you hear.  
 
Allah states, per ayat 42:51, that He reveals, that is, sends down (nazala) wahy by way of a messenger. The messenger is, per ayat 22:75, either a malaika or a human being, that’s it. This negates any such notion that the laws of nature/pondering on the universe is the means by which The Prophet came by Al-Quran. This is further supported by ayat 8:20 which tells The Prophet, who was a believer/truster, that he too had to obey the Messenger of Allah. Nowhere does Allah state that He “prearranged His Quran” in the universe. Nowhere does Allah refers to His laws of nature or the universe as The Messenger of Allah. You have to also keep in mind that Al-Quran was revealed at one time. Given this truth, how long did the Prophet study the laws of nature/ponder the universe and then, in one night, decode all of these laws and make for himself a mistake-free book consisting of 6,600 + ayats?  
 
Per Al-Quran/The Words of Allah, only malaika or humans are messengers. Al-Quran is also a messenger, however, as a book, it was first revealed by the INVISIBLE beings--Allah and Jibreel (a malaika), and then a human being, “Muhammad”.  
 
It is abundantly clear from ayat 2:97 that Jibreel, per ayats 42:51 and 2:97, brought down (nazala) wahy BY THE PERMISSION of Allah—his Creator. It is further abundantly clear per ayat 81:19 that Jibreel is a messenger, so what a remains to be determined then is…is Jibreel a maliaka or human being? Well, he cannot be a human being, because that would make him immortal and one who is the Presence of Allah, thus, the only remaining thing he can be, according to Al-Quran, is an angel/malaika. Just because Allah refers to him by his name/proper noun Jibreel, does not negate that he is of the malaika.  
 
***NARGIS: The message is decoded and comprehended as a result of be izniallah, and when understood, It’s put into words by the Rusool himself. Only parrots are DICTATED, Rusools are using their head and making efforts to understand the message given for the betterment of mankind… the prophets are not robots DICTATED by angels and not using their head.  
 
LOL! Of course The Prophet was dictated to, not by Jibreel, but by Allah. The term Qul/SAY, is used hundreds of times in regard to what “Muhammad” was to say. The following Bible prophecy of the coming of the Last Prophet "Muhammad" also speaks of his being dictated to:  
 
7:157 Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find mentioned in the Torah…  
 
DEUT. 18:18-19 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; and HE SHALL SPEAK UNTO THEM ALL THAT I SHALL COMMAND HIM. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.  
 
Clearly, “Muhammad”, was dictated to by Allah.  
 
***NARGIS: Why Allah is the source of the Quran ONLY if Gabriel, an invisible angel, is coming with the message,and not if the visible established universe is conveying it? What kind of logic are you using? *Invisible angel bringing a message vs *Universe is bringing a message Why is the source of the message changed if Allah's own creation brings you HIS message, instead of an invisible angel,,,not even verified by the Quran....?***  
 
The reason being is simple…there are an infinite number of laws in the universe, so the likelihood of an error occurring while “decoding”, studying", and "pondering" (Allah never said His Quran needs “decoding”) is nothing less than astronomical. However, Allah being one being and the author/source of Al-Quran, and Jibreel, whom Allah created to deliver Al-Quran, being another being whom Allah entrusted with Al-Quran (hence, one of Jibreel’s titles is the Trustworthy Spirit) there can be no question of an error occurring. You see, because Al-Quran came from Allah to “Muhammad” via Jibreel, no “pondering” or “decoding”was necessary in getting Al-Quran.  
 
Well Nargis, you have be soundedly refuted and you have your proof as well that Jibreel is of the malaika. Do you now rescind your claims?  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 

Comments by: Nargis2 On 25 November 2011Report Abuse

He he he  
 
Your orthodox translations refuted NOTHING. Its all in your mind.  
 
however, now it is your turn to prove your claims, no matter how "bizarre" you think my reply is.  
 
and wth is this --->DEUT. 18:18-19 ??????? A Quranist referring to Deut to prove his Claims? U joking? Or--.....you expect us to say HALELUJA too? Loolz You came back stronger than before with...the Bible? eh  
 
Now get busy with your proofs, 2:111, where does it say the prophet was dictated and WHY was he dictated, what did he do to earn dictation from Allah/ his angel? Ref to the Quran thanks---you have been on holiday for too long :P


Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 25 November 2011Report Abuse
NARGIS,  
 
***Your orthodox translations refuted NOTHING.***  
 
This mantra is so tired and dead; it doesn’t serve you here and will certainly not serve you in the world outside of AAstanastan.  
 
If you hadn’t lost, probably long ago, your ability to read with comprehension and had any shred of intellectual honesty, you would admit I’ve thoroughly proven my case and soundly refuted yours. Did you notice that response didn’t cite one ayat to “prove” your claims? All you offered, as is your custom to do, was conjecture which becomes more and more inexplicable with each new post from you.  
 
***no matter how "bizarre" you think my reply is.***  
 
This is a fact.  
 
I wish you would present your position before a live audience. Perhaps the laughter that would inevitably ensue would cure your intractable denial.  
 
***and wth is this --->DEUT. 18:18-19 ??????? A Quranist referring to Deut to prove his Claims? U joking? Or--.....you expect us to say HALELUJA too? Loolz You came back stronger than before with...the Bible? Eh***  
 
Oh...my...god.. Because you know nothing and have absolutely no respect or regard for Allah or His Quran you ask such a ridiculous question. Why do you think Allah put ayat 7:157 in His Quran? A fourth grade would understand ayat 7:157 and its relevance to Deut. 18:18-19. Make no mistake about it…you are not Al-Quran only and alone.  
 
***however, now it is your turn to prove your claim…*Now get busy with your proofs, 2:111, where does it say the prophet was dictated and WHY was he dictated, what did he do to earn dictation from Allah/ his angel? Ref to the Quran thanks---you have been on holiday for too long :P***  
 
It’s said that definition of insanity is doing the sane thing time and again expecting a different result. I’ve proven my case time and again and refuted your claims time and again, but no matter how many ayats are brought before you will not get it. It is simply not for you to get Nargis… and that should really frighten you, Beautiful.  
 
Your pride is…boundless.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 

Comments by: moazzam On 25 November 2011
Brother Dhulqarnain! WELCOME BACK.  
You have to differentiate between two things, (i) The WRITTEN WORDS CONTAINING MESSAGE IN AL-KITAB (called Al-Rooh/Rooh Al-Qudus) and (2) the conceiving of message in rasool's mind through Al-KITAB (by pondering into it) , is also called NUZOOL AL-KITAB.  
(1) The MESSAGE WRITTEN IN AL-KITAB (called Al-Rooh/Rooh Al-Qudus), we don’t know when/where first time the Rasool(the fist conscious being) received it, as per verse 17/85  
وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الرُّوحِ قُلِ الرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّي وَمَا أُوتِيتُم مِّنَ الْعِلْمِ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً  
This Al-Kitab provides many evidences to be the same message beyond time and space given to each prophet, And this process is still going on.  
(2) The revealing/conceiving of message through Al-KITAB(by pondering into it) in Rasool’s mind also called “TANZEEL AL-KITAB”. It means every Rasool in any era could get guidance (by pondering into Al-Kitab) to address the society’s current issues/problems, therefore the message conceives in Rasool’s mind called WAHY/REVEALING AL-KITAB.  
Yes any Rasool/nabi could make mistakes, even in Al-Quran The Prophet is cited making a mistake in judgment, as in verses 80/1-2, 8-10, 66/1, as scientists study the laws of nature in universe they may make mistakes and correct themselves by studying deep into the matter.  
Dhulqarnain: 7:43…and they shall say: All praise is due to Allah Who guided us to this, and we would not have found the way had it not been that Allah had guided us; certainly the apostles of our Lord brought the truth; and it shall be cried out to them that this is the garden of which you are made heirs for what you did.  
Moazzam: In verse 7/43 the behavior of human nature has been described, we always hear these dialogs in our daily life in successive and in his hardship mode.  
Brother Dhulqarnain; because you rely totally on orthodox translations, therefore, you face difficulties to understand our point of views. I am going to provide sense/translation in comparison with orthodox as following to make my stance more clear.  
ORTHODOX TRANSLATION 42/51 And it is not vouchsafed to a mortal that Allah should speak to him, except by revelation or from behind a veil, or by sending a messenger and revealing BY HIS PERMISSION what He pleases. Surely He is High, Wise.  
 
TRANSLATION/ TRUE SENSE  
42:51  
وَمَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَن يُكَلِّمَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَّا وَحْيًا أَوْ مِن وَرَاءِ حِجَابٍ أَوْ يُرْسِلَ رَسُولًا فَيُوحِيَ بِإِذْنِهِ مَا يَشَاءُ 42/51  
It is not fitting for a man that Allah should give him HIS ( understanding of kalam) كَلَامَ except by WAHY( conceiving of message in his mind), or when obstruction/partition (mind set not to understand) removed or by the sending of a messenger to make him understand, with Allah's due process to the person who wants.  
ORTHODOX TRANSLATION OF 22:75 Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.  
TRANSLATION/TRURE SENSE اللَّهُ يَصْطَفِي مِنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا وَمِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ بَصِيرٌ  
22/75 Allah chooses messengers from among the الْمَلَائِكَةِ (the authoritative people)and from among the النَّاسِ (the general public)surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing  
ORTHODOX TRANSLATION OF 2:97 Say: Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel — for surely he revealed/brought//nazaled it to thy mind BY ALLAH’S  
PERMISSION, verifying that which is before it and a guidance and glad tidings for the believers.  
TRANSLATION/TRUE SENSE OS 2/97  
قُلْ مَنْ كَانَ عَدُوًّا لِّجِبْرِيلَ فَإِنَّهُ نَزَّلَهُ عَلَى قَلْبِكَ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَهُ  
دًى وَبُشْرَى لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَSay: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel(the words of Al-Kitab) who Nazala ( caused conceiving)in your mind (the message) bizin-Allah's(with due course of Allah’s process) a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ (for who want to be peace providers).  
ORTHODOX TRANSLATION OF 81/19-21  
81:19 Surely it is the word of a bountiful Messenger,  
81:20 The possessor of strength, established in the presence of the Lord of the Throne,  
81:21 One to be obeyed, and faithful.  
REMEMBER; The scenario mentioned in verses 81/1-18, plays most important role to understand the true sense of this surah. This is the time period when Rasool with his companions defeated the inhuman ruling authorities and took-over the control to establish the Islamic welfare state.  
TRANSLATION/TRUE SENSE  
81/19 إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيْمٍ this is (the message written in 81/1-18) what honorable Rasool ( the rasool of the time among the society in each era) says.  
81/20 ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِندَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ [Who is] possessed of power among the officials governing the state affaires [secure in position].  
81/21 مُّطَاعٍ ثَمَّ أَمِينٍWith authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.  

Comments by: Nargis2 On 25 November 2011Report Abuse

Brother Moazzam, now he will attack us with Torah or Bible to prove his superstitious conjectures and claims.

ORTHODOX TRANSLATION OF 81/19-21  
81:19 Surely it is the word of a bountiful Messenger,  
81:20 The possessor of strength, established in the presence of the Lord of the Throne,  
81:21 One to be obeyed, and faithful.

Is this supposed to be Gabriel , that's why he posted these ayahs ? OMG :s


Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 26 November 2011Report Abuse
MOAZZAN and NARGIS,  
 
Thank you for the welcome back, Moazzam.  
 
ORTHODOX TRANSLATION 42/51 And it is not vouchsafed to a mortal that Allah should speak to him, except by revelation or from behind a veil, or by sending a messenger and revealing BY HIS PERMISSION what He pleases. Surely He is High, Wise.  
 
TRANSLATION/ TRUE SENSE/MOAZZAM :It is not fitting for a man that Allah should give him HIS ( understanding of kalam) كَلَامَ except by WAHY( conceiving of message in his mind), or when obstruction/partition (mind set not to understand) removed or by the sending of a messenger to make him understand, with Allah's due process to the person who wants.  
 
Let’s take the part of the ayat which we both agree on : “or by the sending of a messenger” and then examine ayat 8:20.  
 
8:20 O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger and turn not away from him while you hear.  
 
Certainly when the ayat was recited by The Messenger/The Prophet “Muhammad”, those who claimed to be “believers/trusters” were told to obey him. Now, as with the aforementioned “believers/trusters”, The Prophet “Muhammad” must also come under the heading of “believer/truster” or…are you going to deny that as well? If you don’t deny that he, too, was a “believer/truster”, then who was the Messenger Allah told The Prophet “Muhammad” to obey while he heard? You cannot say it was the laws of nature or the universe, because nowhere has Allah referred the laws of nature or the universe as the messenger.  
 
Looking forward to your reply.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 26 November 2011Report Abuse
***NARGIS: Brother Moazzam, now he will attack us with Torah or Bible to prove his superstitious conjectures and claims.***  
 
7:157 Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel.  
 
So, when Allah revealed ayat 7:157, He did just so no one would check and see if it were so, is this really your position??  
 
ORTHODOX TRANSLATION OF 81/19-21  
81:19 Surely it is the word of a bountiful Messenger,  
81:20 The possessor of strength, established in the presence of the Lord of the Throne,  
81:21 One to be obeyed, and faithful.  
 
***NARGIS: Is this supposed to be Gabriel , that's why he posted these ayahs ? OMG :s***  
 
It is Jibreel and I proved that in my above posts. That you deny it to be the case will not alter the fact one iota.  
 
a) presence of the Lord of the Throne: is not in this world.  
 
8:20 O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger and turn not away from him while you hear.  
 
b) 81:21 One to be obeyed, and faithful. This ayat is directly connected to 8:20.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 28 November 2011Report Abuse
PEACE MOAZZAM (or ANYONE ELSE),  
 
Looking forward to your explanation regarding 8:20 as it relates to 42:51 and 81:21. You have not addressed this issue yet, thanks. Who is the Messenger that "Muhammad" had to obey?  
 
Dhulqarnain-

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 28 November 2011Report Abuse
PEACE MOAZZAM,  
 
***MOAZZAM and NARGIS: TRANSLATION/TRURE SENSE : 22/75 Allah chooses messengers from among the الْمَلَائِكَةِ (the authoritative people) and from among the النَّاسِ (the general public)surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing***  
 
PEOPLE: human beings, as distinguished from animals or other beings; Human beings in general or considered collectively; humans considered as a group or in indefinite numbers.  
 
MORTAL: the state of being subject to death; the condition or quality of being mortal; subjection to death or to the necessity of dying.  
 
a) If the malaika are authoritative “people”/mortals/human beings. Is there any ayat where Allah mentions the death of a malaika?  
 
b) Are there evil malaika?  
 
c) Do malaikas go to Paradise or Hell?  
 
d) If malaika are authoritative “people”/mortals/human beings, then the following ayat makes no sense:  
 
17:95 Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.  
 
The ayat, clearly, is stating that the malaika are not settlers on the earth as people are.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  

Comments by: dawood On 29 November 2011Report Abuse
SA Dhulqarnain:  
 
As I was catching up with the stuff on Aastana, this caught my attention:  
 
"Dhulqarnain: 17:95 Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.  
The ayat, clearly, is stating that the malaika are not settlers on the earth as people are."  
 
Good point. I was contemplating for a long time on the same after reading the book "Haqeeqat-e-Malaika" by Dr. QZ. Dr. QZ has himself punctured his entire thesis by quoting this verse, in which he equates "Mafauqul bashri (non-human)" to Malaika on page 43.

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 29 November 2011Report Abuse
PEACE DAWOOD,  
 
Thank you for you kind words and good to here from you. I’m looking forward to your always sharp analysis.  
 
17:95 Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.  
 
Dhulqarnain: The ayat, clearly, is stating that the malaika are not settlers on the earth as people are."  
 
***Good point. I was contemplating for a long time on the same after reading the book "Haqeeqat-e-Malaika" by Dr. QZ. Dr. QZ has himself punctured his entire thesis by quoting this verse, in which he equates "Mafauqul bashri (non-human)" to Malaika on page 43.***  
 
And there you have it. He does the same thing on page 51:  
 
***QAMAR: When we study the Chapter Al-Hajj, we find that Rusul are deputed strictly from either Malaaika or humans, which means that JINNS are either a group from Malaaika or from humans, because Rusul invariably came from these two species. Let us now reach the conclusion whether JINNS are Malaaika or humans.***  
 
Here, Qamar is defining the malaika, along with the Jinn, as non-humans. Further, he makes the point that rasuls/messengers come from either malaika-non-human or humans. This is exactly what ayat 22:75 states and what I’ve been pointing out in this debate:  
 
22:75 Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.  
 
Ayat 42:51 reads:  
 
42:51 And it is not vouchsafed to a mortal that Allah should speak to him, except by revelation or from behind a veil, or by SENDING A MESSENGER and revealing by his permission what He pleases. Surely He is High, Wise.  
 
8:20 O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger and turn not away from him while you hear  
 
This is what I confronted Moazzam and Nargis:  
 
a) The Prophet “Muhammad” was a mortal who received revelation, so, per ayat 42:51, a messenger had to come to him. This is supported by ayat 8:20 (which, btw, completely vaporizes Qamar’s, Moazzam, and Nargis’s position on this issue, that is, as a believer, “Muhammad”, as with the other believers, had to obey THE MESSENGER as well!  
 
Now, given this reality, what has to be determined at this juncture is—  
 
b) was the messenger sent to The Prophet “Muhammad”---human or non- human?  
 
Please keep in mind that, per ayat 22:75, Allah chooses messengers from either malaika (non-human per Allah and attested to by Qamar) or human.  
 
Nargis, Moazzam, Qamar have no counter to 8:20, a) or b) and that is why they will not address my request to explain them. You can see how confused they are, because Nargis and Moazzam define the malaika as “people/humans”, but Qamar, as you pointed out, defines them as non-human. If a human being came to him, then Al-Quran’s authenticity, genuineness, and the claim that there is no doubt in it, immediately comes into play, because the question then becomes—well, where did the human being who gave Al-Quran to the Prophet “Muhammad”—get Al-Quran from? Ayat 8:20 also prevents them from claiming that “Muhammad” got Al-Quran from “studying the laws of nature and pondering on the universe” nonsense, because “the laws of nature/ the universe” are never defined or referred to as—The Messenger of Allah.  
 
Yeah, they are finished. It is abundantly evident that they have not thought through their claims.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  

Comments by: moazzam On 29 November 2011
Brother Dawood, Dear Dhulqarnain/All Aastana Members! Salam.  
THE PUZZLE OF MALAAIKA as well as JIBREEL AND MEEKAAL.  
Please pay some special attention to the following explanation to become free from all superstitions and fantasies usually linked with the divine wordings.  
2/97-8:  
Qul, man kaana 'Aduwwan li JIBREELA fa innahu nazzalahu 'ala Qalbika bi Iznillah musaddaqan li maa bayina yadayihi wa Hudan wa Bushra lil Momineen.  
Man kaana 'Aduwwan Lillahi wa MALAAIKATIHI wa Rusulihi wa JIBREELA WA MIKAALA fa innallaha 'Aduwwan lil Kafireen".  
 
97. Say (O Muhammad Sal-Allaahu 'alayhe Wa Sallam ): "Whoever is an enemy to Jibrael (Gabriel) (let Him die In his fury), for indeed He has brought it (this Qur'ân) down to Your heart by Allâh's Permission, confirming what came before it [i.e. the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and guidance and glad tidings for the believers.  
98. "Whoever is an enemy to Allâh, his angels, his Messengers, Jibrael (Gabriel) and Mikael (Michael), Then Verily, Allâh is an enemy to the disbelievers."  
(Traditional Translations).  
 
AND NOW, the most up-to-date, Rational, Literary translation:  
 
“Whoever became an enemy to Divine Revelation وحی الہی (JIBREEL), so (he must know that) HE (Alllah) has sent down that (وحی الہی ) upon your Heart with Divine Commandments (باذن اللہ ), testifying what had preceded it, and is Guidance and Glad Tidings for the Believers.  
“Whoever turned into an enemy against God’s commands (Lillah), against those responsible for enforcement thereof (MALAAIKA), against His Messengers, against His Wahi/Guidance/Quran (JIBREEL), and against the one who advocates that divine Ideology (MIKAALA), then, Allah is the enemy of such disbelievers.”  
 
JIBREEL: How can one dare to become an enemy to Arch-angel Gabriel, as according to mythology, he can overturn the whole earth by a slight movement of one of his wings? Yes, there were many who became enemies of Quran, the Divine Revelation or the Divine Commandments.  
 
MIKAAL: The Root و ک ل – Mikaal is the derivative on the paradigm Mif’aal. The same paradigm includes Mish’aal, Miftaah, Mizaan, etc. which means something that puts into practice the Root Meaning of the word in question. For example, Mish’aal, the source that enlightens a Mish’al; Miftaah, a source thing that opens up something, etc. Therefore, MIKAAL, a person or thing that assumes the responsibility of advocating an ideology, viz., the Islamic Ideology, the Quranic Ideology.  
 
PREREQUSITE TO UNDERSTAND THE QURANIC VERSES RELEVANT TO MALAIKA:  
Although we believe in life after death where people would be individually accountable(details not elaborated in Quran), but Alkitab provides guidance for life before death, so we must be accountable collectively/individually as well.We should face the consequences/end results ( through causes and effects )of our good/bad deeds in life. Therefore “Yaum Ak-Qiyamah,Yaum Al-akhirah” and “Jannah, Jahannum, Al_Naar” are the terminologies used to describe the different situations/mode in this life.  
Secondly, we are firm, that, Al-kitab explains itself and it is Mubeen its contents are clear to understand/comprehendible without any ambiguity and chose.  
Some Quranist taken the Malaika as the natural forces functions in the universe AND the psychological un-seen forces acting in human personalities (in his inner-self).  
OUR INFERENCE IS THE MLAIKA ARE AMONG THE MANKIND THAT HOLDING POWER/AUTHORITY.  
The following attributes/qualities of Malaika are proven by Al-Kitab.  
1) They can communicate with people, read the verses 4/96-100 and focus on 4/97 this is happening in this life (not after death)  
2) Read the verses 41/18-30 and focus on 4/30, the communication with people is (in this life).  
3) They been worshiped and considered as the sustainers by the people (in this life), read the verses3/78-80, 34/40-42.  
4) The Kuffar, normally considers to “the obedient Malaika ” as the weaker one (inasa) of the society member.  
5) They could be obedient or otherwise in their behavior, the example is the story of Iblees o aadam. Those wielding power and influence. Here, they are the ones who use their power and influence in furthering the cause of Islamic ideology and have the responsibility of enforcing it.  
QURANIC VERSES WHICH DESCRIBES “FUNCTIONING OF MALAIKAH”  
Lexicon Root = alf,laam, fa "ALF" MUTUAL LOVE AND AFFECTIONS,FONDNESS, read the verses9/60,8/63,3/103.  
it also mean quantity 1000,  
This term came in different verses at different places (in different context) in the sense of MUTUAL AFFECTIONS and FONDNESS, THE QUANTITY 1000 has been taken erroneously, almost at all places in Quran.  
See the verses 32/5,29/14,22/47,97/3,70/4.  
Let me translate two verses as an example .  
In verse 22/47  
وَيَسْتَعْجِلُونَكَ بِالْعَذَابِ وَلَن يُخْلِفَ اللَّهُ وَعْدَهُ وَإِنَّ يَوْمًا عِندَ رَبِّكَ كَأَلْفِ سَنَةٍ مِّمَّا تَعُدُّونَ  
And they urge you to hasten the punishment. But Allah will never fail in His promise. And indeed, the Allah's era (time period when His nizam e raboobiyat will be established) which you think "far away" in fact, is the period of mutual love and affections.  
Verse 29/14  
وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحًا إِلَى قَوْمِهِ فَلَبِثَ فِيهِمْ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ إِلَّا خَمْسِينَ عَامًا فَأَخَذَهُمُ الطُّوفَانُ وَهُمْ ظَالِمُونَ  
And We certainly sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them (to guide them) calling them with love and affections, but they didn't come together (to join him) and the "TOOFAN"seized them while they were wrongdoers.  
LET US TRANSLATE/PRODUCE THE SENSE OF VERSES 8/65-66.  
65.  
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ حَرِّضِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلَى الْقِتَالِ إِن يَكُن مِّنكُمْ عِشْرُونَ صَابِرُونَ يَغْلِبُواْ مِئَتَيْنِ وَإِن يَكُن مِّنكُم مِّئَةٌ يَغْلِبُواْ أَلْفًا مِّنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَفْقَهُونَ  
O Prophet, urge the Momineen to battle. If there are among you, who live/dwell with steadfast, they will overcome the (enemy) abundant in strength . And(even) if there are among you in abundant in strength, they will overcome the Kuffar those have mutual persuasive (against the Momineen) because they are a people who do not understand.  
8/66.  
الْآنَ خَفَّفَ اللّهُ عَنكُمْ وَعَلِمَ أَنَّ فِيكُمْ ضَعْفًا فَإِن يَكُن مِّنكُم مِّئَةٌ صَابِرَةٌ يَغْلِبُواْ مِئَتَيْنِ وَإِن يَكُن مِّنكُمْ أَلْفٌ يَغْلِبُواْ أَلْفَيْنِ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ  
Now, Allah has lightened [the hardship] for you, and He knows that among you is weakness. So if there are from you in abundant in strength who are steadfast, they will overcome double in strength . And if there are among you with mutual affections and persuasive they will overcome the enemy those are twice in "mutual affection and persuasive (to know the sense see the verse 24/43) through due course of procedure set by Allah, And Allah is with the steadfast.  
As for as verses 2/123-127 is concerns here the quantity of Malaika has been mistranslated which is ILLOGICAL, AGAINST THE QURANIC TEACHINGS ,AGAINST THE NATURE AS WELL.  
Malaika = influential people  
3/124  
إِذْ تَقُولُ لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَلَن يَكْفِيَكُمْ أَن يُمِدَّكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِثَلاَثَةِ آلاَفٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُـنْـزَلِينَ  
[Remember] when you said to the Momineen, "Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should reinforce you with the mutual convincing among the Malaika for tremendous love/affections and persuasiveness (we sent down)?  
بِثَلاَثَةِ آلاَفٍ = convening for love and affections  
 
verse 3/125  
بَلَى إِن تَصْبِرُواْ وَتَتَّقُواْ وَيَأْتُوكُم مِّن فَوْرِهِمْ هَـذَا يُمْدِدْكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِخَمْسَةِ آلاَفٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُسَوِّمِينَ  
Yes, if you remain patient and conscious of Allah and the enemy come upon you [attacking] in rage, your Lord will reinforce you by the Malaika coming close together with persuasiveness and affection having marks [of distinction]  
.  

Comments by: Nargis2 On 29 November 2011Report Abuse

Biradar Moazzam , you have posted these answers hundreds of times, they will ignore them again. Is it not about time we start new discussions and concentrate on people who want to learn the Quran and not teach us their biblical hadithistic mythology? Wallah brother im sacchu and muchi !!!! Is it not a universal truth that those who don't want to listen wont listen?


Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 29 November 2011Report Abuse
PEACE MOAZZAM,  
 
I thank you for your reply, however, you did not explain the following:  
 
8:20 O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger and turn not away from him while you hear  
 
a) The Prophet “Muhammad” was a mortal who received revelation, so, per ayat 42:51, a messenger had to come to him. This is supported by ayat 8:20, that is, as a believer, “Muhammad”, as with the other believers, had to obey THE MESSENGER as well!  
 
Now, given this reality, what has to be determined at this juncture is—  
 
b) was the messenger sent to The Prophet “Muhammad”---human or non- human?  
 
Please keep in mind that, per ayat 22:75, Allah chooses messengers from either malaika (non-human per Allah and attested to by Qamar) or human.  
 
You see, Moazzam, you have no effective counter to 8:20, a) or b) and that is why you have yet to address my request to explain them. You and Nargis and define the malaika as “people/humans”, but Qamar defines them as non-human. So which is it? If a human being came to The Prophet "Muhammad", then Al-Quran’s authenticity, genuineness, and the claim that there is no doubt in it, immediately comes into play, because the question then becomes—well, where did the human being who gave Al-Quran to the Prophet “Muhammad”—get Al-Quran from? Ayat 8:20 also prevents you from claiming that “Muhammad” got Al-Quran from “studying the laws of nature and pondering on the universe” nonsense, because “the laws of nature/ the universe” are never defined or referred to as—The Messenger of Allah.  
 
I'm hoping you or Nargis can explain 8:20 in the light of 17:95, 42:51 and 22:75.  
 
Looking forward to your explanation.  
 
Dhulqarnain-

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 29 November 2011Report Abuse
***Biradar Moazzam , Wallah brother im sacchu and muchi !!!! Is it not a universal truth that those who don't want to listen wont listen?***  
 
LOL! Ahh, more true self-confessions from Lady Nargis .Ever the denialist. :D  
 
You nor Moazzam have explained 8:20 in the light of 17:95, 42:51 and 22:75.  
 
How do you explain Qamar defining the malaika as non-human while you and Moazzam define them as human? Any thoughts? :D  
 
Anyway, hers's a copy for you:  
 
8:20 O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger and turn not away from him while you hear  
 
a) The Prophet “Muhammad” was a mortal who received revelation, so, per ayat 42:51, a messenger had to come to him. This is supported by ayat 8:20, that is, as a believer, “Muhammad”, as with the other believers, had to obey THE MESSENGER as well!  
 
Now, given this reality, what has to be determined at this juncture is—  
 
b) was the messenger sent to The Prophet “Muhammad”---human or non- human?  
 
Please keep in mind that, per ayat 22:75, Allah chooses messengers from either malaika (non-human per Allah and attested to by Qamar) or human.  
 
You see, Nargis, you have no effective counter to 8:20, a) or b) and that is why you have yet to address my request to explain them. You and Nargis and define the malaika as “people/humans”, but Qamar defines them as non-human. So which is it? If a human being came to The Prophet "Muhammad", then Al-Quran’s authenticity, genuineness, and the claim that there is no doubt in it, immediately comes into play, because the question then becomes—well, where did the human being who gave Al-Quran to the Prophet “Muhammad”—get Al-Quran from? Ayat 8:20 also prevents you from claiming that “Muhammad” got Al-Quran from “studying the laws of nature and pondering on the universe” nonsense, because “the laws of nature/ the universe” are never defined or referred to as—The Messenger of Allah.  
 
I'm hoping you or Moazzam can explain 8:20 in the light of 17:95, 42:51 and 22:75.  
 
Looking forward to your explanation.  

Comments by: Nargis2 On 29 November 2011Report Abuse
I thank you for your reply, however, you did not explain the following:  
 
8:20 O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger and turn not away from him while you hear - Dhulqarnain

B Moazzam explained this 10/11/2011, as a reply to your question

:- Dhul: What Messenger did the Prophet “Muhammad” have to obey? As a Muslim, he too, was required to obey the Messenger, so, what Messenger did he have to obey? , because according to ayat 8:20 he heard the messenger

**MOAZZAM: The Al-Quran only , unfortunately you misunderstood the verse 8/20, Dear Dhul,if you are really serious to learn, then read the verses 8/1-21,the context of the subject will determine the true sense of 8/20 the only verse you quoted with out its context.  
8/20 يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلاَ تَوَلَّوْا عَنْهُ وَأَنتُمْ تَسْمَعُونَ  
O ye who claim to be the peace provider! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak)  
Think who is speaking here

(the Rasool of the time is speaking with Momineen).

8/21 وَلاَ تَكُونُواْ كَالَّذِينَ قَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَهُمْ لاَ يَسْمَعُونَ  
Nor be like those who say, "We hear," but listen not:

http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=181

Click CTR +F, type in 8:20 or intell in that link, and you will find Br Moazzams reply.


Comments by: naeem sheikh On 29 November 2011Report Abuse
THANK YOU VERY MUCH BROTHER MOAZZAM TO ELABORATE THE TERM "MALAIKA" IN DETAIL, I THINK NO STONE LEFT UNTURNED TO MAKE YOUR STANCE CLEAR. I, 100 % AGREE AND CONVINCED.JAZAKALLAH.  
BUT YOU DIDN'T REPLY QUESTION FOR "THE TERM JINN", KINDLY ENLIGHTEN US, AS YOU EXPLAINED THE "TERM MALAIKAH" BY ADDRESSING ALMOST ALL VERSES MENTIONED IN QURAN REGARDING THE TERM ASKED FOR.  
THE QUERY FOR "JINN" AWAITED LONG??

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 29 November 2011Report Abuse
***NARGIS: B Moazzam explained this 10/11/2011, as a reply to your question***  
 
:- Dhul: What Messenger did the Prophet “Muhammad” have to obey? As a Muslim, he too, was required to obey the Messenger, so, what Messenger did he have to obey? , because according to ayat 8:20 he heard the messenger  
 
***MOAZZAM: The Al-Quran only….***  
 
8:20 O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger and turn not away from him while you hear  
 
17:95 Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.  
 
22:75 Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.  
 
42:51 And it is not vouchsafed to a mortal that Allah should speak to him, except by revelation or from behind a veil, or by SENDING A MESSENGER and revealing by his permission what He pleases. Surely He is High, Wise.  
 
You nor Moazzam have explained 8:20 in the context of 17:95, 42:51 and 22:75. These ayats are essential to your explanation. Keep in mind that, per ayat 22:75, The Messengers were either malaika (non-human per Qamar) or human (Messengers are chosen from malaika and humans). It cannot be Al-Quran, because Al-Quran is not human—authoritative or non-authoritative (you and Moazzan claim that the malaika are “authoritative people”, hence, human. In addition, as a book, Al-Quran did not send itself. The above ayats also eliminates “the laws of nature/the universe” as being The Messenger, because nowhere does Allah refer to the law of nature/the universe as The Messenger. Also keep in mind that, per yours and Moazzam’s position, Allah could not send Al-Quran directly, because that would mean He had direct communication with a human being. As I said a moment ago, “the laws of nature/the universe” as being The Messenger won’t work either, because nowhere does Allah refer to the law of nature/the universe as The Messenger.  
 
Anyway…  
 
I’m sorry, Nargis. Neither you nor Moazzam have to date explained ayat 8:20.  
 
Looking forward to your explanations.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  

Comments by: Nargis On 29 November 2011Report Abuse

Yes it is explained many times, but you ignore it , here a brief summary for the last time-  
 
8:20,, the messenger of IT TIME IS TALKING TO HIS MOMINEENS, no name is mentioned, no Mohammed is mentioned and not Gabriel is mentioned in this verse. Its added by the followers of bible Hadith and history ,,followers in disguise.  
 
References:- all the debates related to Gabriel, search for it on the blog  
 
Mohammed followed the Quran, 7:3, so did every Rusool, ...> key word-----> Millate Ibrahim...ring any bells?  
 
17:95 is saying that Malaika are NOT from heaven,,,,  
 
Reference already provided , read page 39:- http://www.aastana.com/books/19_E.PDF  
 
22:75 “Allah swt chooses Rusul out of Malaaika and humans”.  
 
It’s a categorical statement, law and proclamation that Allah swt chooses his Rusul from amongst either Malaaika or  
humans. Throughout Quran, there is no suggestion of Rusul’s selection from JINNS. Therefore, we can authentically assume that Rusul have never been chosen from JINNS, which means that Rusul towards JINNS would either be from humans or from Malaaika.  
 
references already provided:- page 50 --> http://www.aastana.com/books/19_E.PDF  
 
Copy pasting explanations of 42:51 by Dr Qamar Zaman and Moazzam

DR QAMAR ZAMAN

The answer is "Yes" Quran is Wahi and you are holding it in your hands.  
وَمَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَنْ يُكَلِّمَهُ اللَّهُ إِلا وَحْيًا أَوْ مِنْ وَرَاءِ حِجَابٍ أَوْ يُرْسِلَ رَسُولا فَيُوحِيَ بِإِذْنِهِ مَا يَشَاءُ إِنَّهُ عَلِيٌّ حَكِيمٌ  
 
51. it is not possible for any human being that Allâh should speak to Him unless (it be) by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or (that) He sends a Messenger to reveal what He wills by his Leave. Verily, He is Most High, Most Wise .  
 
51. it is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to Him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a Messenger to reveal, with Allah.s permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most wise.  
 
In this verse you can see that :  
No human being can talk to the creator on his own . So all those who claim that they can talk to Allah either in dreams during sleep or while awake is totally wrong .Categorically no human being can dare to talk to Allah.  
 
But Allah talks to human beings by three ways  
1..Revelation  
2..behind a veil . Now what behind the veil means .To understand this you have to consider yourself to be behind a veil and trying to look through that veil .The objects onthe other sides are not clear ,so you make efforts to have a clear vision .  
 
So behind the veil means you have to put effort to understand the meanings of Wahi .These efforts include learning the languge and the basics of Wahi ( essense and the purpose)  
3..,Someone delivers the message of Wahi ,as most of our learned scholars are doing and they are all messengers ..  
 
So Allah reveals through these three ways .  
Your next question needs two words /terminologies to be understood .نبی and النبی The root letters of the word نبی is either ن ب و or ن ب ی . From ن ب و means a person posted at a high position like a Head of a state .But نبی from ن ب ی means a person who gives some news , and in Religion it means a person Who gets news from the God and gives it to the nation .النبی is a proper noun because of additional ال .  
 
The concept of giving news i.e.prophesising is from other religions ,who think a Prophet is the one who prophsises and hence the word prophet .But Quran says he is a Messenger when he gives Quran's message .and later when he has power to implement then he is Nabi .  
 
we can discuss each and every verse about رسول and نبی in a literary and cordial way http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=788

MOAZZAM

42:51TRANSLATION/ TRUE SENSE  
 
وَمَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَن يُكَلِّمَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَّا وَحْيًا أَوْ مِن وَرَاءِ حِجَابٍ أَوْ يُرْسِلَ رَسُولًا فَيُوحِيَ بِإِذْنِهِ مَا يَشَاءُ 42/51  
It is not fitting for a man that Allah should give him HIS ( understanding of kalam) كَلَامَ except by WAHY( conceiving of message in his mind), or when obstruction/partition (mind set not to understand) removed or by the sending of a messenger to make him understand, with Allah's due process to the person who wants.  
ORTHODOX TRANSLATION OF 22:75 Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.

 
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1887  

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 29 November 2011Report Abuse
***Yes it is explained many times, but you ignore it , here a brief summary for the last time-***  
 
Okay, then let’s see.  
 
8:20 O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger and turn not away from him while you hear  
 
17:95 Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.  
 
22:75 Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.  
 
42:51 And it is not vouchsafed to a mortal that Allah should speak to him, except by revelation or from behind a veil, or by SENDING A MESSENGER and revealing by his permission what He pleases. Surely He is High, Wise.  
 
****NARGIS: 8:20,, the messenger of IT TIME IS TALKING TO HIS MOMINEENS, no name is mentioned, no Mohammed is mentioned and not Gabriel is mentioned in this verse. Its added by the followers of bible Hadith and history ,,followers in disguise.***  
 
Okay, but you are STILL in the same place! If 8:20 is, as you claim it is, a general statement pertaining to the any messenger of any time talking to the believers/trusters, then The Prophet “Muhammad”, in his time, would also talk to the believers/trusters. I get that. However, as a believer/truster HIMSELF…what messenger did he have to obey? The ayat does not exclude the messenger-prophet from likewise having to obey the messenger to him. Do you get it now? Ayat 8:20 also applies to “Muhammad”. So, again, what messenger did “Muhamad” have to obey?  
 
***NARGIS: 17:95 is saying that Malaika are NOT from heaven,,,, It’s a categorical statement, law and proclamation that Allah swt chooses his Rusul from amongst either Malaaika or humans.***  
 
Where do you get this from?! There is no mention of where the malaika come from in 17:95; it’s statement that they are NOT OF THE EARTH, period, hence, they are not human beings.  
 
So, again, the messenger who came to the Prophet "Muhammad" was either human or non-human. If your answer is that he was human---  
 
***Nargis: 3..,Someone delivers the message of Wahi ,as most of our learned scholars are doing and they are all messengers .. ***  
 
then you're contradicting your prior position that the Prophet "Muhammad" got Al-Quran by "studying the laws of nature and pondering on the universe".  
 
NARGIS: He studied the laws of nature, the nature of living beings, how they function and the division of resources among them, and how that is necessary in order to have a well-balanced development/ growth. Everything available for the senses- When nature reveals itself, its hidden information, it is wahy. When the human being understands it, it is being nazooled in his mind, revealing itself to his mind, being comprehended by his mind. A scientist cannot sit at home and make up information by himself; the law of Allah allows achievement/results by efforts. BE IZINALLAH اللّهِ بِإِذْنِ =according to Allah’s law = Course of process, way/passage of progress, knowledge obtained through the process of observation ponderings reflections cogitations- The message is decoded and comprehended as a result of be izniallah, and when understood, It’s put into words by the Rusool himself. Only parrots are dictated, Rusools are using their head and making efforts to understand the message given for the betterment of mankind. How do we know this is the message words from Allah? By its content, its content is its own judge.***  
 
Clearly, the messenger that came to The Prophet "Muhammad"---was not human.  
 
Nargis, you are caught up in a Zugswang situation, here.  
 
Looking forward to your reply.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 

Comments by: dawood On 30 November 2011Report Abuse
SA Moazzam:  
"MOAZZAM: TRANSLATION/TRURE SENSE : 22/75 Allah chooses messengers from among the الْمَلَائِكَةِ (the authoritative people) and from among the النَّاسِ (the general public)surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.."  
 
The implication of the above conjecture is that there is no divine book like Alquran for Malaika, for Alquran is always addressing Alnas, except in one instance in which Malika are ordered to submit to Adam. If this is true, then Moazzam's conjecture is untenable.

Comments by: Nargis On 30 November 2011Report Abuse
Clearly, the messenger that came to The Prophet "Muhammad"---was not human.  
Clearly, the messenger that came to The Prophet "Muhammad"---was not human.  
Clearly, the messenger that came to The Prophet "Muhammad"---was not human.  
Clearly, the messenger that came to The Prophet "Muhammad"---was not human.  
Clearly, the messenger that came to The Prophet "Muhammad"---was not human.  
Clearly, the messenger that came to The Prophet "Muhammad"---was not human.  
Clearly, the messenger that came to The Prophet "Muhammad"---was not human. Dhulqarnain

Where did the Quran say that ?bring your proofs- Where does it say Al rusool wr sent to S Mohammed, ref to ayah ? Bring your proofs

there is no divine book like Alquran for Malaika, for Alquran is

always

addressing Alnas,

except

in one instance in which Malika are ordered to submit to Adam.Dawood  
 
http://www.piano.christrup.net/PIANO/FORUM/rofl.gif  

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 30 November 2011Report Abuse
***Where did the Quran say that ?bring your proofs- Where does it say Al rusool wr sent to S Mohammed, ref to ayah ? Bring your proofs***  
 
Nargis, are you at all engaged in this conversation?  
 
Let's do it one more time *sigh*.  
 
22:75 Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.  
 
Do you grasp that Allah says that He chooses messengers from:  
 
1. malaika  
 
2. men  
 
 
17:95 Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.  
 
1. malaika, as beings, do not settle/walk the earth.  
 
2. human settle/walk on the earth.  
 
Hence, malaika, cannot be human.  
 
 
42:51 And it is not vouchsafed to a mortal that Allah should speak to him, except by revelation or from behind a veil, or by SENDING A MESSENGER and revealing by his permission what He pleases. Surely He is High, Wise  
 
Allah communicates with humans, as you also detailed, in three ways.  
 
1. Wahy  
 
2. From behind a veil  
 
3. By sending a messenger  
 
 
8:20 O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger and turn not away from him while you hear .  
 
1. The Prophet "Muhammad" was a believer/truster, hence, he too, was required to obey THE MESSENGER  
 
2. As Allah only chooses malaika or men as messengers, then what has to be determined is--was The Messenger who came to The Messenger-Prophet "Muhammad" human or non-human. Ayat 17:95 proves that the malaika, as messengers from Allah, are non-human as they do not settle on the earth as men do.  
 
3. You cannot claim that The Messenger who came to The Messenger-Prophet "Muhammad" was human, because then you have to ask--where did he get Al-Quran from?  
 
4. As a result, by the process of elimination (you only have two choices for messengers from Allah--maliaka or men), The Messenger who came The Messenger-Prophet "Muhammad"...was non-human and one of the malaika.  
 
There simply is nothing else.  
 
Dhulqarnain-

Comments by: moazzam On 30 November 2011
Brothger Dawood,Sister Nargis,Mr.Dhulqarnain!  
As far as verse 17/95 is concerns you have to understand its sense through its context, read verses 17/90-95.  
Here the illogical demands of Kuffar (based on their false belief/religious dogmas) including their false concept of, Malaika, Allah, has been described. Even today we are facing the same behavior of KUFFAR.. Remember the religious world still believe in the force of “ANGLES” living in heaven.  
CONCLUSION: In verse 17/95 Allah denying their false concept of Malaikah, if such a creature would dwelling at earth, Allah would sent the messengers amongst them.  

Comments by: moazzam On 30 November 2011
Dear Dawood,Sister Nargis and All Aastana Members. Is not believing in heavenly living Angles “KUFR” ????  
verse 4/136.يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ آمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ مِن قَبْلُ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِاللّهِ وَمَلاَئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلاَلاً بَعِيدًا.  
The orthodox translation is the route cause of the mythological based religion, which consists only on belief , dogmas and futile rituals as well.If any one not believes in the heavenly living Angles, certainly gone for astray.  
ORTHODOX TRANSLATION: O you, who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.  
The true sense of the verse  
TRUE SENSE/TRANSLATION. The true sense of the verse turns the dogmas into real successive life.  
O you, who claim/want to be peace provider, be peace provider with “ALLAH”(the Islamic state based on Allah's commandments) and His “MESSENGERS”(be obedient to him) and with the same “AL-KITAB” which has been given before and as well to the rosool of the time (follow the commandments written in it as per rasool’s understanding). And whoever denies Allah (The Islamic state based on Allah’s commandments), His “malaika" (the officials of the state) His books, His messengers, and the “YAUM AL AKHIRAH” (time of makafat e amal)has certainly gone far astray.  
 

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 30 November 2011Report Abuse
PEACE MOAZZZAM.  
 
MOAZZZAM: TRUE SENSE/TRANSLATION: His “malaika" (the officials of the state)… Remember the religious world still believe in the force of “ANGLES” living in heaven.  
 
17:94And nothing prevents people from believing, when the guidance comes to them, except that they say: Has Allah raised up a mortal to be a messenger?  
 
17:95 Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about secure, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as messenger.  
 
1. Ayat 17:94 provides the context for 17:95, that is, the disbelievers thought the Words of Allah should have come from a powerful being—one of the malaika and not a human being. Allah, in ayat 17:95, tells the disbelievers that if the earth was inhabited with the malaika then He would have sent a malaika to them as a messenger, but that the earth is inhabited by humans He sent a human as their messenger.  
 
2. Clearly, per ayat 17:95, Allah states that the malaika are sent down/nazala (not directionally up and down, but directionally from one place to another) from heaven.  
 
3. The malaika cannot be humans/state officials, because that would directly contradict 17:95. State officials, and there have to be millions of them, walk/masha on the earth. The malaika, per ayat 17:95, do not walk on the earth.  
 
4. If the malaika are humans/state officials, then are you asserting that the malaika can be evil? Allah knows there are plenty of evil state officials. So are you going to assert that ALL state officials are 100% good?  
 
 
WHO WAS THE MESSENGER THAT "MUHAMMAD" HAD TO OBEY?  
 
Moazzam, you still have not explained 8:20 in the light of 17:95; 22:75, and 42:51.  
 
42:51 And it is not vouchsafed to a mortal that Allah should speak to him, except by revelation or from behind a veil, or by SENDING A MESSENGER and revealing by his permission what He pleases. Surely He is High, Wise  
 
Allah communicates with humans, as you also detailed, in three ways.  
 
1. Wahy  
 
2. From behind a veil  
 
3. By sending a messenger  
 
8:20 O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger and turn not away from him while you hear .  
 
1. The Prophet "Muhammad" was a believer/truster, hence, he too, was required to obey THE MESSENGER.  
 
2. As Allah only chooses malaika or men as messengers, then what has to be determined is--was The Messenger who came to The Messenger-Prophet "Muhammad" human or non-human. Ayat 17:95 proves that the malaika, as messengers from Allah, are non-human as they do not settle on the earth as men do.  
 
3. You cannot claim that The Messenger who came to The Messenger-Prophet "Muhammad" was human, because then you have to ask---well, where did he get Al-Quran, in the first place (remember now, you assert that Allah makes no direct contact with humans), to give to "Muhammad"?  
 
4. As a result, by the process of elimination (you only have two choices for messengers from Allah--maliaka or men), The Messenger who came The Messenger-Prophet "Muhammad"...was non-human and one of the malaika.  
 
There simply is nothing else.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  

Comments by: Nargis On 30 November 2011Report Abuse

Sister Nargis and All Aastana Members. Is not believing in heavenly living Angles “KUFR” ????  
verse 4/136.يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ آمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ مِن قَبْلُ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِاللّهِ وَمَلاَئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلاَلاً بَعِيدًا.  
The orthodox translation is the route cause of the mythological based religion, which consists only on belief , dogmas and futile rituals as well.If any one not believes in the heavenly living Angles, certainly gone for astray

Exactly, that is why those who believe in dogmas and rituals are have to go out of the Quran and quote bible or Hadith or orthodox translation based on history Hadith to make their point. Is it possible to change Kuffar while they are in this state of mind? These people won't change and even the Quran is not talking to them, how can human beings do it?


Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 30 November 2011Report Abuse
***NARGIS: Exactly, that is why those who believe in dogmas and rituals are have to go out of the Quran and quote bible or Hadith or orthodox translation based on history Hadith to make their point. Is it possible to change Kuffar while they are in this state of mind? These people won't change and even the Quran is not talking to them, how can human beings do it?***  
 
Let me, once again, remind you of your blatantly hypocritical behavior and contradictory positions.  
 
THESE ARE YOUR WORDS, NARGIS.  
 
STATEMENT A ***NARGIS: Brother Moazzam, now he will attack us with Torah or Bible to prove his superstitious conjectures and claims….Why would the Quran talk about any topic it cannot provide details for , just so we would always be needing history and other abra cadabra hokus pocus ? In fact, its easier --> Anyone who want us to GO OUTSIDE OF THE QURAN to prove something for them, is not a student of the Quran, thus we cannot help him. D  
 
***NARGIS: *** before you quote us and make a fool of urself..oh well, your biblical quotes are enough for that***  
 
Then, as is your custom to do, you contradicted yourself!  
 
STATEMENT B ***NARGIS: Xactly, join hands with the truth WHEREVER YOU FIND IT.( My caps) My brother Moazzam said that (ALQURAN = The true divine message comprehended through Tasreef Alayaat + by OBSERVING context of THE VERSES + by observing grammatical rules + appropriate selection of meanings from lexicon + keeping in view the core message of ALquran. LAWS OF NATURE /UNIVERSAL VALUES = All the scattered universal truth whether in CHURCH + MANDIR + GORDWARA + IMAM BARGAH + MASQUE OF ANY SECT+ UNDHR + CDHR +OIC + UN + HADITH + BIBLE + archeology etc)***  
 
***NARGIS: Xactly, join hands with the truth WHEREVER YOU FIND IT…in CHURCH + ... BIBLE..***  
 
When you (and Moazzam ) thought it suited you, you were all for using the Bible or anything else to support your distorted “notions of the truth” However, when I quoted the Bible, per Allah’s ayat 7:157, then you reject your own position!  
 
So, why don’t you tell us all right now, what, EXACTLY, is your position—STATEMENT A OR STATEMENT B?  
 
What is really so disturbing about you is,…you don’t even care that you constantly contradict yourself or that your behavior is blatantly hypocritical.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
 
 
 

Comments by: dawood On 01 December 2011Report Abuse
SA Moazzam:  
 
"Moazzam: As far as verse 17/95 is concerns you have to understand its sense through its context, read verses 17/90-95.  
Here the illogical demands of Kuffar (based on their false belief/religious dogmas) including their false concept of, Malaika, Allah, has been described. Even today we are facing the same behavior of KUFFAR.. Remember the religious world still believe in the force of “ANGLES” living in heaven.  
CONCLUSION: In verse 17/95 Allah denying their false concept of Malaikah, if such a creature would dwelling at earth, Allah would sent the messengers amongst them."  
 
First, you yourself have admitted in the above Conclusion that people at the time of the prophet had a concept of Malaika that is different than what you have presented in this thread; thus your assertion that it is a false concept. If your assertion about their false concept is taken to be true, then the prophet himself did not know this true concept of yours; thus, he (the prophet) never replied to say that "Malaika are from people and you see them everyday....etc. etc." Rather, prophets reply to people is clearly pointing against your assertion and establishing the fact that what people demanded was not of humans, rather something different than the humans, thus, the reply: no Malaika messenger is sent since Malaika don't live on this planet earth. Period.  
 
Second: "Or thou cause the sky to fall in pieces, as thou sayest (will happen), against us; or thou bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face" (17:92).  
 
Now look at 17:92, Allah and Malaika are clubbed together and people want to see them face-to-face. If your point is true that Malaika are humans, then havn't people seen them before and/or couldn't they see them everyday? How could then they demand that bring both Malaika and Allah for us to see? This further establishes that Malaika are something that people could not see as they could not see Allah, thus the demand. Therefore, Malaika are not humans. Period.

Comments by: dawood On 01 December 2011Report Abuse
SA Dhulqarnain:  
 
" Dhulqarnaina: Thank you for you kind words and good to here from you. I’m looking forward to your always sharp analysis."  
 
Thank you and sorry for not responding to various points in timely manner because of my own time constraints. You have however established the facts rather clearly and unambiguously.

Comments by: moazzam On 01 December 2011
Dear Dawood,Dhulqarnain,Aastana Members.  
The religious extremists dumb wouldn't come out of dark, till gone through the following stages.  
The first stage "to comprehend the true Quranic message" begins with the liberalization of human thought from the most extreme dogmatism to more open minded inquiry.  
It initiates by closely observing “beyond the available evidence” that to hold to such a system is like an act of faith, and hence is likely to be done with greater assurance and rigidity than is properly warranted by the evidence.  
And ends with the conception of positive approach toward Quranic verses for getting true sense of the subject under discussion, like the science in which scientific theories are based on observation and experiment and do not go beyond what is manifest from the evidence, because it is expected that scientific theories are subject to refutation if contrary evidence comes to light, ultimately find THE TRUTH.  

Comments by: Mujeeb On 01 December 2011Report Abuse
Respected all Aastana Members ; your valuable comments required please. THANKS.  
ARE YOU AGREEING WITH MR. MOAZZAM'S FOLLOWING ASSERTION?  
I’M SURE 99% MUSLIMS INCLUDING AHL-E-KITAB WILL DISAGREE.  
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1890  
Allah created “AADAM” [human being] and addressed "ADAM" with respect to his behavioral attitude (character) in Al-Kitab, like shetan,Jinn, Malaika, basher,Rasool,nabi Insan etc.  

Comments by: Nargis On 01 December 2011Report Abuse
The religious extremists dumb wouldn't come out of dark, till gone through the following stages.

Thats why they are angry because their bible and hadith based translation wont help them. Fairytale fantasy castles are destroyed badly, their invisible angels are killed and they have to back up each other before they are eliminated.  
 
Everyone have been scared of them, their fat fatwah attitude, their moral police and the IKNOWBEST attitude...not to mention the power of majority.  
 
However , we are far ahead ,,,not only are we using our head, not only are we threatening their beliefs based on fantasies..but even women are thinking talking :D  
 
But we have to be careful, very soon they will throw a taweez on us ugghh


Comments by: Nargis On 01 December 2011Report Abuse
I’M SURE 99% MUSLIMS INCLUDING AHL-E-KITAB WILL DISAGREE. Mujeeb

Whoever disagree, keep in mind, we disagreed FIRST !!!!! :D  
 
they can only cry, but not prove their angels and jinnies..  
 
Watch this movie plz, you will get the point  
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0NlNOI5LG0


Comments by: dawood On 02 December 2011Report Abuse
SA Br. Moazzam:  
 
"Moazzam: The religious extremists dumb wouldn't come out of dark, till gone through the following stages.  
The first stage "to comprehend the true Quranic message" begins with the liberalization of human thought from the most extreme dogmatism to more open minded inquiry.  
It initiates by closely observing “beyond the available evidence” that to hold to such a system is like an act of faith, and hence is likely to be done with greater assurance and rigidity than is properly warranted by the evidence.  
And ends with the conception of positive approach toward Quranic verses for getting true sense of the subject under discussion, like the science in which scientific theories are based on observation and experiment and do not go beyond what is manifest from the evidence, because it is expected that scientific theories are subject to refutation if contrary evidence comes to light, ultimately find THE TRUTH."  
 
How does your above observation prove or advance your point about 17:95, 17:92, etc., or the topic under discussion?

Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On 02 December 2011 Edit DeleteReport Abuse
PEACE DAWOOD,  
 
***DAWOOD: Now look at 17:92, Allah and Malaika are clubbed together and people want to see them face-to-face. If your point is true that Malaika are humans, then havn't people seen them before and/or couldn't they see them everyday? How could then they demand that bring both Malaika and Allah for us to see? This further establishes that Malaika are something that people could not see as they could not see Allah, thus the demand. Therefore, Malaika are not humans. Period.***  
 
Yup, that just about wraps it up.  
 
***DAWOOD:How does your above observation prove or advance your point about 17:95, 17:92, etc., or the topic under discussion?***  
 
LOL! a real brain-teaser, yeah!  
 
It's crystal clear to me that Nargis and Moazzam don't take themselves seriously, hence, they could care less if they make sense or not. They just enjoy making things up and see who can come up with the most bizarre/mindboggling conjecture to baffle and bedazzle their followers. Sometimes when I read their comments I just belly laugh for for 5-10 minutes! :D  
 
Two really intelligent people, what a waste.  
 
Dhulqarnain-

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