TOPIC: Islam >> Beliefs
By: Mujeeb On: 5/3/2011

Comments by: Nargis2 On: 5/3/2011

2.Dear Mujeeb,  
If Aastana members are not clear on basic (important) issues and people like Mr Moazzam could only misguide, then I must ask you...WHY DO YOU BOTHER TO COME HERE??!!  
Maybe you should associate with a forum whose members are clear on the very basic (important) issues and where there aren't people like Mr Moazzam who could only misguide (as you say).  
As an Adult you should know just as well as the rest of here that if you have nothing nice or constructive to say, then you should learn to withhold your words.
Comments by: Damon On: 5/3/2011

3.Mr. Mujeeb;  
Clear with their concepts or not!  
I am sure Aastana members cannot guide you anyway :)  
The reason is that You are beyond all kinds of guidances.  
Guidance proof I would say :P  
That reminded me of a famous saying in Urdu;  
Thety say; Bhains ke aage been bajane ka koi faieda bahi hota.
Comments by: Junaid On: 5/3/2011

4.Salam Mujeeb,  
Lets have some positive contribution from you now please. Help sis nargis as she asked for it and get off brother Moazzam's back!  
Comments by: UmeAimon On: 5/3/2011

Dear Mujeeb,  
Brother you are also aastana member. Here everyone doesn't have same opinions.  
We put our convictions to test of reason and logic. Our sister UmeAimon has rightly advised you  
to contribute. I am happy you are here. Please contribute. What do you have to say.  
Comments by: momin On: 5/3/2011 all caps lock party spoilers argggg  
Brother Mujeeb,The warning should be givento the peadophile mullahs who are promoting child marrige ,mutha halala myasir prostitution an other bizarre activities in the name of God.
Comments by: Nargis2 On: 5/4/2011

7.Dear Friends,  
I second Brother Aurangzaib. We must never attack or belittle any Bother or Sister. Of course, we are free to share our knowledge, views, and opinions on aastana forum. If you do not agree with the views or opinions of a Brother or Sister, please refute them with sound argument. The forum is to discuss and learn, not quarrel. Our goal is to explore the question or topic from every frame of reference and try to find the best possible answer.  
Brother Moazzam is right that many verses that apply to this world have been wrongly interpreted to mean the world to come. This has diverted our attention from this world and its problems. Our focus need to be on our current world first. Now the question is does Quran exclude any reference or hint to the Next World. That is where our opinions differ.  
I am in total agreement with Brothers Aurangzaib and Pervez, and Sister UmeAimon. Let me mention here that since I learned about Brother Dr. Qamar’s view that Quran talks about this world only, I have been trying hard to accommodate this view. However, I encountered serious problems when I tried to apply some verses to this world exclusively. Here I will mention a few.  
و ہ لوگ جو قوانین قدرت کو جو اس نے نازل کیے ہیں چھپاتے ہیں اور ان کے بدلے تھوڑی سی قیمت وصول کرتے ہیں وہ اپنے پیٹوں میں محض آگ بھرتے ہیں۔ ایسے لوگوں کی قدرت کے نظام میں مکافات عمل کے وقت نہ تو سنوائی ہوگی اور نہ ہی ان کوان کی غلطیوں سے بری قرار دےگا۔ بلکہ ان کے لئے تکلیف دہ سزا ہو گی ۔  
Those who hide the Laws of Nature and bargain them for a small price are filling their bellies with fire. On the Day of Retribution, the System of Nature will neither hear their pleas nor excuse their sins. They will receive sever punishment. (2:174)  
First, how can someone hide natural laws or sell them? If this verse applies only to life on the earth, what is the Day of Retribution? Who is in charge that day? Who punishes the wrong doers? Please keep in mind that many criminals are never caught or punished during their short lives on earth. Similarly, sometimes good people lose their lives while saving others. If the reward is only for the earthly life, how do these good Samaritans get their reward once there are dead?  
ان لوگوں کو خوش خبری سنائیں جو اہل امن ہوئے اور جنہوں نے صلاحیت بخش اعمال کئے کہ انہیں ایسی مملکتیں ملیں گی جن کی ماتحتی میں خوشحالیا ں رواں دواں ہونگی جب کبھی ماضی میں بھی ان مملکتوں سےانکو ان کے اعمال کے سبب انعام سے نوازہ گیا تو انہوں نے ہمیشہ یہ ہی کہا کہ یہ تو وہی نعمت ہے یااس جیسی ہے جو اس سے پہلے بھی ہم جیسوں کو دی گئی اور ان کے لئے ان مملکتوں میں پاکیزہ ذہن ساتھی ہونگے۔ وہ اس میں اس وقت تک رہیں گے جب تک امن و صلاحیت بخش اعمال کرتے رہیں گے۔  
This interpretation gives the impression that some people lived through multiple generations and, hence, they were able to witnesses the prosperity of past empires. Is that possible? The verse ends with the promise that they will live in bliss as long as they are peaceful and productive. Were not Prophet Muhammad and his companions peaceful and productive? How come none of them lived? Prophet Muhammad and his first Khalif died due to natural causes. But 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Khalif were murdered. Please keep in mind the end of verse 2:38. Those who follow the Commandments are assured that they would have no fear or worry. If this applies only to this world, we expect that Khalif Omar, Osman, and Ali would have no fear or worries. How come they got murdered? Also, Those who follow God’s Commandments often face persecution and even death.  
یہ قانون شکن لوگ وہ ہیں جو خدا کے ساتھ کئے گئے پختہ عہد کو توڑتے ہیں اور ان احکامات کو کاٹتے ہیں جن کو جوڑنے کا حکم دیا گیا تھا اورمملکت میں فساد پھیلاتے ہیں یہی لوگ خسارہ پانے والے ہیں۔  
We learn from this verse that those who break laws, do not keep their promises, disobey God’s commandments, and make mischief on earth are losers. We have a problem applying this verse to the life on earth only. Surely, some law breakers and other criminals suffer on earth but not all of them. Here is just one example. Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin murdered over 30 million people. We have no record he was a loser or received any punishment before his death.  
Assume that a true Islamic State is established during our life time. And the authorities of this state are in charge on the Day of Retribution or the Day of Judgement. How will they bring those criminals, who are dead, back to life and punish them?  
Comments by: Zubair On: 5/4/2011

8.Dear Brother Zubair  
How do you know about khalif Omar and Ali?  
If the system of Deen is established in Pakistan, and people are living peacefully, is it not possible that they canbe attacked by USA ,,,where the system is not established?  
On the other hand, if the system of Deen -salaat is established EVERYWHERE, do you have something to fear in the same way ?  
And how do we know people are getting punishment in the next life that we dont know anything about? Is it guessed and assumed, or is it a proven reality?
Comments by: Nargis2 On: 5/4/2011

9.Dear Sister Nargis,  
Please read the verses I quoted again. It is the Quran that talks about the punishment as well as reward, not I. Please prove from real life every bad person on earth receives his punishment and every Good Samaritan reaps rewards in THIS LIFE. The fact is those guilty of bloody crimes on earth often do not get any punishment in THIS LIFE. Likewise, many Good Samaritans never get any reward for their works in THIS LIFE. If you believe everything Quran talks about applies only to THIS LIFE, please explain why Quran is talking about reward and punishment, which we rarely see in THIS LIFE.  
Do you believe The Creator exists? If your answer is yes, then you may agree that The Creator created THIS LIFE for a purpose. And The Creator possesses the blueprint of everything created. You may have heard that the chance of two snowflakes being exactly alike is zero. The same is the case with the creation. Everything is unique.  
I hope some day we are able to establish a communication channel with The Creator. Then, we can have The Almighty talk to everyone on earth directly and settle this question once and for all.  
Last, I know about Khalif Omar and Ali same like I know about Prophet Muhammad.  
Comments by: Zubair On: 5/5/2011

10.Dear Participants, SA: Here are two cents of mine for your kind consideration.  
We are operating under the assumption that Allah could not have told us about something that we cannot verify ourselves, using our faculties. Thus our interpretation of the verses under consideration follows from this very assumption. We then go back and cast a fresh look at each and every case and try to fit it in this view. In some cases, it probably fits nicely; and in many others it may not as amply demonstrated by many brothers in various similar threads. I am however of the considered opinion that no matter what kind of ideal islamic quran-following govt you may have, it cannot gurantee a 100% just system until the govt puts an electronic bug in each and every person's thinking. And the reason is simple. There are countless ways in which individuals as well as groups can think of and execute bad deeds/actions. The idea that each and everyone is going to be questioned at some point, someday, and then rewarded/punished is a perfect idea to fill this gap.  
As regard to verification of the kind of punishment or reward, it is stressed through examples to highlight the point that it will bring the same/similar pain/sadness and joy, or more than that. The degree of the sentiments of both sadness and joy vary from individual to individual, and society to socity. I guess we clearly undersatnd these things in every day life? The only thing that we don't know is the actual form of the punishment or the reward. But the actual form is immaterial, for one could be punished or rewarded in countless ways.  
May Allah bless you all and reward you for your excellent thoughts.
Comments by: dawood On: 5/5/2011

11.Dear brother Zubair,  
1. I am very glad to read your post. I agree with you totally. Your input is a great contribution.  
You raised and discussed a very good point regarding reward and punishment.  
2. I agree with brother dawood also, he says,  
We are operating under the assumption that Allah could not have told us about something that we cannot verify ourselves, using our faculties. Thus our interpretation of the verses under consideration follows from this very assumption.  
That was my point also. I am in total agreement with brother Dawood.  
3. The most glaring problem is that when you interpret Quran with a belief that it is for life before death,  
than it negates human consciousness and the individual. How can you apply principal of justice as  
explained by brother Zubair. Life becomes meaningless without goal and objective. You reduce human  
life of consciousness to animal life. This is the point we must think over.  
4. I suggest brother bob to give a serious consideration to the posts by brother Aurangzeb,Zubair,Dawood  
and sister UmeiAimen in this thread and reach a decision. Indecisiveness weakens your personality.  
Comments by: pervez On: 5/5/2011

12.Dear All,  
Aren't we in majority right now folks?  
Brothers Zubair and Dawood join us in the same stance, with more Quranic references and rational arguments. Bravo for them.  
Comments by: aurangzaib On: 5/5/2011

13.I thought Prophet Mohammed was known through the Quran... :-O  
Dear participants, the simple question: is the description of life after death written in the Quran? Is life after death explained by the Quran? Is the description of anything that is beyond our comprehension given in the Quran, if yes then please share it with us.  
(without using the traditional translation or the hadith please)  
Is it WRITTEN clearly in the Quran or is it ASSUMED? Is the written scripture clear mubeen or left to our personal perception and judgment?  
Other than that, people are free to believe guess or assume whatever they like, don’t you think its okay allama perwez: D: D?  
Comments by: Nargis2 On: 5/5/2011

14."Majority is the authority and this is democracy"  
Not sure where these words came from but I think these words suits the situation :)  
Finally the discussion seems to be moving towards an agreement!  
Brother Zubair, I don't know why but I feel a special kind of affiliation with you and that is because your posts, your writings, reflect a practical and realistic approach. It is to mention that after reading the following sentence in your last post, a question came into my mind and I would request you to please answer that question. Also to let you know that if someone else would've said this, I wouldn't have asked this question.  
**(I know about Khalif Omar and Ali same like I know about Prophet Muhammad. ) by Zubair  
Dear brother, as per my understanding, we have two sources for all such information. First one is the books of "hadith" and so called "sunnah". The second one is books of Islamic history. Both these records have been compiled by the same group of Imams.  
I am assuming that you already believe in Quran as the real guide instead of what is written in books of hadith and sunnah.  
My question is that what is the criteria of ignoring the records in form of hadith and sunnah while accepting history as authentic, when both the records have been compiled by the same people?  
Also that if you think Omar and Ali are 100% authentic characters, and whatever our Persian historians wrote about them and the life of Muhammad (pbuh) is correct, then why can't we accept everything from these Persian writers?  
Why can't we reject everything from those writers and consider Quran alone as the source of all the information?  
Note: In case if we refer to Quran alone, we can see no such names there and Quran does not authenticates history recorded by Persians under Arab Autocrats.  
My apologies for raising this question coz I can't stop my mind from wandering!
Comments by: Junaid On: 5/5/2011

Dear baity Nargis,  
Although I have my limitations of old age and than swear heart problem, yet  
it is difficult for me to ignore your post.  
Baity, I think you are not reading relevant posts carefully with full presence of mind. Otherwise,  
you would have not written,  
Dear participants, the simple question: is the description of life after death written in the Quran? Is life after death explained by the Quran? Is the description of anything that is beyond our comprehension given in the Quran, if yes then please share it with us.  
What is written in the Quran about life after death has been adequately explained by brother Aurangzeb  
,Zubair, UmeiAiman, and now the latest post by brother Dawood. What else you want. Please read carefully  
and you will get the answer. I think I have little time left in this world and now winding up for the next world  
with complete confidence as per God's promise. This is the most difficult time. Those who think there is  
no life after life will have difficulty in leaving this world. For people like me is just a transfer. It is  
comprehend able, sensible, beautiful assurance by Quran. I will be treated justly, however I was not  
treated justly in this world, they never appreciated my good deeds, DOUBTED MY LOVE, were unjust,  
unfair, tyrant and oppressors. I fought them, suffered from pain and agony but no problem Allah has  
given me assurance of life after death. I can die with peace, will go to my Allah who is just. Thanks  
God I believed in life after death. Otherwise, would have faced miserable death. There will be smile  
on my face while dying not hopelessness.  
baba momin
Comments by: momin On: 5/6/2011

16.dearest Manmo momin  
A sunni once said beard is a command from the Quran. I asked him what is the aya no?  
he showed me : Follow the prophet (cant remember the ayat no)  
I asked a shia what is "ahl bayt"? and he said its the family of prophet mohammed, his daughter her husband and their kids  
i asked him where they are mentioned in the Quran?  
He said, Quran said follow ul il amr....  
So the point is, my questions are not in the search for an individual perception, but for the actual message free from subjective thoughts and not based on traditonal stories and fairy tales.  
So im posting my questions again, please tell me if they are not clear, ill try to reword them :D  
Dear participants, the simple question: is the description of life after death written in the Quran? Is life after death explained by the Quran? Is the description of anything that is beyond our comprehension given in the Quran, if yes then please share it with us.  
Is it WRITTEN clearly in the Quran or is it ASSUMED? Is the written scripture clear mubeen or left to our personal perception and judgment?  
(without using the traditional translation or the hadith please , pure quran alone)
Comments by: Nargis2 On: 5/6/2011

17.Brother Zubair  
“”Those who hide the Laws of Nature and bargain them for a small price are filling their bellies with fire. On the Day of Retribution, the System of Nature will neither hear their pleas nor excuse their sins. They will receive sever punishment. (2:174)  
First, how can someone hide natural laws or sell them? If this verse applies only to life on the earth, what is the Day of Retribution? Who is in charge that day? Who punishes the wrong doers? Please keep in mind that many criminals are never caught or punished during their short lives on earth. Similarly, sometimes good people lose their lives while saving others. If the reward is only for the earthly life, how do these good Samaritans get their reward once there are dead?””  
Dear brother Zubair  
I humbly request you to look at the word anzala and then explain what you think the “laws of nature” are. How do you “sell” something that is claimed to be concealed ? It would also be nice to see your comprehension of “laws of nature” after reading next verses  
یہی وہ لوگ ہیں جنہوں نے ہدایت چھوڑ کر گمراہی اور بخشش چھوڑ کر عذاب خریدا۔ پس ان کی گمراہی کی آ گ پر کیسی استقامت ہے۔  
یہ اس لئے کہ قدرت نے ایک خاص کتاب حقوق کی نازل کی۔ اور جن لوگوں نے اس کتاب میں اختلاف کیا وہ انتہائی سرکشی میں پڑ گئے ہیں۔  
مباحث :۔  
آپ نے دیکھا ہوگا کہ بہت سارے مقامات پر الکتاب کی تعریف الحق آئی ہےجس کا ترجمہ سچی کتاب کیا جاتا ہے۔ یہ بات بڑی عجیب لگتی ہے کہ خالق کائنات کو بار بار اپنی کتاب کے متعلق لوگوں کو باور کرانا پڑتا ہے کہ یہ کتاب سچی ہے ۔۔۔۔۔۔! اگر خالق کائنات کو اپنی کتاب کے لئے اتنی بار کہنا پڑ ے کہ یہ سچی ہے تو عام کتاب کا کیا حال ہوگا ۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔؟ جب کوئی شخص اپنی خود تعریفی میں اتنا غلو اختیار کرتا ہے تو معا ملہ مشکوک ہو جاتا ہے ۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔آخر کیا وجہ ہے کہ خالق اپنی کتاب کو اس کے مضمون کے ذریعے نہیں ثابت کر پا رہا کہ یہ سچی ہے ۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔؟ آج تک کسی حساب یا سائنس کی کتاب لکھنے والے نے یہ نہیں کہا کہ فلاں حساب یا سائنس کی کتاب صحیح ہے یا سچی ہے۔  
کتاب تو خود ثابت کرتی ہے کہ اس کے مضامین سچے ہیں یا جھوٹ پر مبنی ہیں لکھنے والا ایسی بات تو اس وقت کرے گا جب اس نے کچھ گڑ بڑ کی ہو گی ، جو خالق کائنات کی شان نہیں ہے۔ اصل بات یہ ہے کہ ایسے مقامات پر ترجمہ ہی غلط کیا گیا ہے۔ الکتاب ایک خاص کتاب بمعنی وحی الہی ، احکامات الہی ، قوانین قدرت اور بالحق حق کی۔ وحی الہی ،احکامات الہی قوانین قدرت اصلاً وہ اصول اور پیمانے دیتے ہیں جو انسانیت کو اس کے حقوق دلاتے ہیں اور انسان کو دوسرے انسان پر ظلم و زیادتی سے روکتے ہیں۔  
Comments by: bob On: 5/6/2011

18.Brother Momin.  
I know you are a brave man. You have lived with conviction and will certainly enter the next world. No ideological or conceptual barriers shedding doubts at the life after death can stop you from entering that new phase of life.  
I am a student of Quran and I have spend some time with Allama Ghulam Ahmad Pervez. He was a very staunch believer of life after death and he derived all his arguments from Quran. The irony with this book "Quran" is that people interpret concepts according to their own beliefs and refer the same to Quranic Ayats. In fact all the sects claim that they have derived their peculiar beliefs from Quran and they all give very logical proof based on the grammatical inferences from Quranic text. Deoband. Brelvi, Ahl-hadith, Ahl-Quran, Ahl-Tashee, etc, etc, they all interpret Quran just as was done by Pervez, Maudidi, Dr, Israr, Ghamdi, Dr Qamar and others.  
It is all confusion but Brother Momin I support your views that there is a life after death and even some atheists believe that.  
Comments by: SS On: 5/6/2011

Comments by: Nargis On: 5/7/2011

20.Dear Brother Dawood,  
Thanks for reinforcing our view point with your brief but rational explanation. I could not explain it any better.  
Dear Brother Junaid,  
Yesterday, I wrote a response using some verses from Brother Dr. Qamar’s translation. I am 100% certain I saved the document. When I arrived home at the end of day, I decided to take a quick nap first. I ended up spending the whole night in the dream world. Today, I could not find the document. It just vanished.  
Anyway I would suggest reading Surahs Al-Muzammil (The Great Caravan Leader), Al-Muddaththir (Founder Of The Benevolent Order), Muhammad, and Al-Fath (Victory). These Surahs clearly tell us about Prophet Muhammad.  
Should we dump all our history because those Persian Imams distorted it? As long as we have tools to distinguish between fact and fiction or truth and falsehood, there is no need to discard everything we find in our history books. Please remember that The Creator has endowed us with some extraordinary faculties, which include the power of reasoning and inferring. Why should not we use them to filter the truth from falsehood?  
Have you ever read “The Song of Roland”? If not, I strongly urge you to find it in a library or on the Internet. Then, do some homework and find answers to the following questions.  
What event or battle this song narrates?  
When did the event occur?  
When did the poet write the song?  
Was the poet eyewitness to the event?  
If not, how many years after the event he wrote the song?  
Is the story narrated in the song true?  
If not, what is the true story?  
How did you find the true story of the event?  
Can you apply the same knowledge and tools to find out whether the story of Karbala is a fact or fiction?  
Here are a few verses from some of the Surahs I suggested you to read.  
47:34 Those who oppose the truth and hinder (people) from the path of God, and then die as disbelievers, God will not pardon them.  
If life ends at death, it makes no sense to talk about “pardon”.  
47:36 The life of this world is but a sport and amusement. But if you believe and live upright, He will give you your rewards, and will not ask you to give up your wealth.  
Here God clearly tells us about rewards if we live upright. Do we get all rewards in this world? Suppose you were a desert Bedouin during the life time of the Prophet. You went to see the Prophet and decided to accept Islam. Then, you learned that a party of believers was about to leave to stop some invaders before they reach Medina. You joined the group and lost your life in the battlefield. How are you going to receive your reward from Almighty in this world?  
48:5 Thus He will admit the believing men and the believing women into Gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they shall abide. And He will absolve their faults and imperfections. And that is, in the Sight of God, the Supreme Triumph. [11:115]  
48:6 And He will punish the hypocrite men and the hypocrite women and the idolater men and idolater women who hold evil assumptions and plans against God. Around them is a circle of their disruptive deeds, and God´s Disapproval is upon them and He deprives them of His grace. For them He has readied Hell, and how miserable is that as a destination!  
If our journey is going to end in “nothingness”, why talk about rewards and punishment? God’s approval or disapproval, forgiveness or unforgiveness, grace or punishment mean nothing to the dead.  
48:8 (O Prophet) We have sent you as a witness (to the truth and to people), as a bringer of good news, and as a warner. [2:143]  
Why God calls the Prophet a messenger of good news and a warner? What is the good news? What is the warning?  
48:14 To God belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and earth. He forgives and punishes according to His Law of Requital. God is Absolver of imperfections, Compassionate.  
If the term “Allah” applies only to the benevolent system humans will set up on the earth some day, how would you interpret the above verse? How will this system own the earth and everything in the cosmos? The earth and everything in the universe belongs to The Creator. The system would be a creation of humans. How can a creation own something that it did not create?  
48:29 Muhammad is God´s Messenger. And those who are with him are stern towards the rejecters of truth, and full of compassion towards one another. You can see them bowing (to commands), adoring (Him), as they seek God´s bounty and Acceptance. Their signs (of belief) are on their faces, the effects of adoration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel. They are like a seed that brings forth its shoot, and then He strengthens it, so that it grows stout, and then stands firm on its stem, delighting those who have sown it. (Thus the believers grow in strength,) so that through them He might confound with rage the rejecters. But to those who may yet attain belief and benefit others, God promises protection of their own ´self´ and an immense reward.  
NOTE: I used the English translation from Dr. Shabbir Ahmed’s QXP 4th Edition. You can find it at the website  
Comments by: Zubair On: 5/7/2011

21.Dear Brother Bob,  
In my humble understanding natural laws are different from God’s decrees or commandments given in the Quran. People may ignore God’s commandments or decrees and they may not get hurt or die. Just take a look at Merchants in Pak and India. They lie, cheat, adulterate foods, hoard commodities, and charge hefty prices. They and their businesses still thrive. However, ignoring a natural law may result in serious injury or death. Those who are aware of the Law of Gravity would never jump from a high-rise building or tower intentionally. Similarly, someone who does not know how to swim would not jump in a river or deep lake and risk drowning. We know anything heavier than water sinks.  
We have traffic laws. Those who violate them risk serious injury and even death. This morning one young student driver lost his life. His younger brother is fighting for his life in the hospital. What happened? The young driver failed to stop at the red light.  
My question was how could people conceal or hide natural laws? Please answer it.  
Of course Mullahs, Mulvis, Priests, Rabbis, and Pandits can conceal or hide the teachings, commandments, and decrees in the Book or Scriptures. When I tell my Christian friends about some passages in the Bible, they are shocked. They tell me they had no idea those passages were in the Bible. They go to their Churches but the Priests never mention those passages. They just skip them.  
Comments by: Zubair On: 5/7/2011

22.Dear Brother Momin,  
If you call yourself a baba, should I start calling myself a grandbaba?  
What a coincidence? I was planning to tell Sister Nargis that some of our brothers might be approaching the border that separates This World from the Next. Hence, this topic needed our urgent attention.  
Surprisingly, my views about life and death do not differ from yours. Death merely ends our journey in This World and starts another journey in the Next. Actually, we taste or experience death every day, i.e. we fall asleep that is a form of death, and enter the dream world. While in the dream world, we may see a glimpse of the Next World. But we wake up and come back to life. When final death comes, we will go to sleep and enter the dream world. The only difference is that we will not wake up and come back to this world. Who will enter the world of sweet dreams and who will suffer in a world of nightmares? I am sure you know the answer.  
For your information, many years ago I was concerned about dying in a foreign country. Here I had only my wife and kids. Rest of the family and relatives were in Pak. I am not sure whether it was a dream, daydream, or pure vision. But someone told me to develop a friendship with The Creator. Then, I would have no worry about dying on the land, in the sea or air, or anywhere else. This worry left my mind right away and never returned.  
Comments by: Zubair On: 5/7/2011

23.Dear Nargis,  
You might have exclaimed: "and..... et..... tu,,,,,,,Shariq?". Rather than writing the word "Sentimentality".  
Alhamdu-Lillah, the voices of discord are dying out as majority increases by the day.  
Just to draw a comparison, may I too highlight a word, without offense to anyone? ......With your permission folks................"OBSTINACY"!  
I beg forgiveness in advance for writing this piece of truth.  
Comments by: aurangzaib On: 5/7/2011

24.heyy brother Aurungzaib, i didnt understand your last post, please explain it ?
Comments by: Nargis2 On: 5/7/2011

25.I call it raging obsession
Comments by: SS On: 5/7/2011

Comments by: Nargis2 On: 5/7/2011

27.Traditional Islam professes hatred;  
I believe in love for humanity...  
its your choice............  
Comments by: SS On: 5/7/2011

28.Dear Shariq;  
You believe in Love for humanity ?  
Yeah me too!  
But this "love" demands action mate ...  
Not just words!!!!  
A real motive...  
A solid plan ...  
A line of action ...  
A continuous struggle ...  
Comments by: Junaid On: 5/7/2011

29.Brother Zubair;  
"Song of Roland", I think I've read something about it when I was reading the history of Christian Crusades. As a first impression, it seemed like one of the many steps in terms of literature and art which were created / modified / re invented to influence and promote a war hysteria in the name of "religion". This hysteria led the Christians to a war against Muslims, while this song has a great influence in the first Crusade. Obviously I can see no option to verify the contents of this poetry. How can I? But still I'll do some more research and try to come back with the answers for the questions you have asked.  
Anyway, why are we going that far in the past? Lets talk about today!  
Today in the 21st century, with all the modern communication and information technology, can you exactly tell me what happened with Osama Bin Laden? I mean can you provide a 100% accurate information for this particular incident, without using assumptions, speculations and third party information? Of course not!  
You can't so it because the access to this information has been blocked by those who are in power. No matter what you do, no matter who you talk to, no matter where you go, you will not be able to find the true story. Despite all these media channels, despite having access to internet, all you have right now is, the information provided by a third party which is totally unreliable since it is serving the interests of someone else.  
The situation was exactly the same in our past. If you try and analyze the psyche of the people belonging to that particular region, where our ancestors came from, you will realize that the Arabs or Iraqis are those people who can do anything to come in power. They can use all their means for exploitation, and this is all legal in their dictionaries. Look at the tyrant, selfish and greedy Wahabi Arab Rulers, look at the dictator Saddam Hussain, Look at other mass murderers in our times, who did almost everything to protect their thrones of power. These people belong to the same region where Islamic history was recorded. Now think about those who were in power or who were ruling these regions in 9th and 10th century when this history was written, or reinvented I would say. How can you expect truth from those writers who were serving the of Arab rulers and were guarding their interests?  
Arab rulers, who were using all their means to suppress all opposing voices. How can you accept sincerity from the autocrats, the monarchs, the tyrant rulers of those times? Likewise, how can you verify the information that came to you? You can't verify something which happened yesterday, I can't verify something which happened few miles away from the region I belong, then how can we verify something which happened centuries ago?  
Those who control masses, control all the information. Those in power, can easily mislead and misguide you!  
You said ;  
"As long as we have tools to distinguish between fact and fiction or truth and falsehood, there is no need to discard everything we find in our history books. "  
Ok fine, I agree!  
But tell me one thing, Isn't it what the imams of different FIAHA says?  
They have used the same words to present their schools of thought and they have IJMAA on it. Yes I am talking about IJMAA where MAJORITY of so called ULEMA agree on one point and declare it as "authentic".  
These so called "MAZHABI ULEMA" use their faculties, their tools to distinguish between truth and fiction, according to their scales and they accept or reject contents from the books of history and hadith as per same logic.  
How will you differentiate the information that is being accepted or rejected by these Ulemas of various sects, based on the same theory you have come up with?  
BTW, the MAJORITY of our DEENI ULEMA says something different. They believe in SECTS and not AL-DEEN. They believe in myths, dogmas and rituals. Judging them on the scale of MAJORITY or on the basis of distinction between facts and fiction, using our abilities, I think this will make things more complicated. I guess, In that case we'll have to prove why 1 billion people are wrong and why only 10 or 20 individuals are right!  
Why cant we use a single scale to measure everything? Why are we still mixing up things?  
AL-KITAAB, alone (whether it's Quran, whether it's the book of nature)! Isn't it the best option?  
Now let me ask few more things brother;  
You have asked me to go through quoted few verses like Surahs Al-Muzammil (The Great Caravan Leader), Al-Muddaththir (Founder Of The Benevolent Order), Muhammad, and Al-Fath (Victory).  
Sure I will, but I have one question here;  
I would request you to please tell me where can I find the exact interpretation for these verses? Which translation do you think is authentic and accurate, and why?  
Frankly speaking, I have gone through various translations by different so called "scholars" representing different schools of thought. I can assure you the I can definitely see the name / attribute (Mohammad), but I cannot confirm any other name, such as Ali or Omar from Quran alone. I'll definitely be needing books of history to confirm these names. Now if I go for the option to use certain criteria to distinguish facts, then why shouldn't I go with one of those schools of thought which has been accepted as authentic, worldwide? What am I doing here then?  
You have quoted few verses from Quran. These verses seem quite logical and they support the views you have presented. Ok I agree with you, but my question is, can you assure me that the translation you have quoted is 100% authentic and accurate? I mean are these verses saying exactly what you have quoted? How can you say that these verses have been correctly interpreted by Dr. Shabbir?  
If you can say that the translation is almost 100% accurate, then I can see no reason for any further argument and I'll accept your stance as correct.  
In fact I am not participating in this particular discussion due to the fact that I have a disagreement with both sides.  
I strongly support the concept of "Life after death" but I want to evaluate my thoughts on the basis of rationality. As per my opinion, no one has come up with solid rational approach, either to support or deny this particular concept.  
Yes I agree that Quranic verses have been quoted by few participants to support their stance, but no one has come up with a claim that the quoted verses have been translated accurately.  
Accurate translation of Quran in it's true essence. Isn't it the reason why we all are here?  
If translation of Quran at aastana is being conducted with mutual consent of all members and being presented with mutual agreement, then lets wait till we see a complete translation. Only then we would be able to judge everything on the basis of Quran. Why to hurry?  
Comments by: Junaid On: 5/7/2011

30.Mr Junaid  
You gave wonderful arguments from history and near the end of your comments you said  
"I strongly support the concept of "Life after death" but I want to evaluate my thoughts on the basis of rationality".  
Well from hundreds and thousands of translations of Quran out there one accepts only a very few to be correct or authentic. Those which one accepts to be correct or authentic are those which suits to his mind, thoughts, attitude, his personality, his up-bringing, etc, etc. Every person perceives the world around him in a particular manner. That's why we have so many different views about different concepts and ideas. We cannot make scientific rules about abstract concepts and ideas.  
We have to live with the variety of ideas.  
I salute the way of thinking of respected Dr Qamar. To one of the questions by a member 'whether Islam is the best', he gave the most beautiful reply which I quote below:-  
Had it been the best why the creator is so carefree in sending this message to whole of the world . The fact is that everybody has the basics of morality inherently given to him . The books called divine books are the reminders of the same . People living in remote or distant places not knowing about divine books also know what is wrong and what is right  
Religion in every shape capitalizes the ignorance manipulates and exploits illiteracy . unquote  
Some people in that part of the world are still struck up in the "I am the best syndrome" and they always try to find most scandalous words to humiliate those holding different views. They give holy sermons just for others to change while they prefer to remain in the disgusted dark themselves.  
Comments by: SS On: 5/7/2011

31.Dear Shariq;  
I think your point is quite logical. However, I must tell you that I am trying to think a bit out of the box right now. I am not willing to accept any translation as correct or authentic. I don't want to accept something which suits my mind, my personality or my upbringing. Rather I wanna know the real facts. I wanna know the truth. Truth in it's pure form. I am trying, not to go with any preconceived thoughts and I am now more inclined towards investigation, research and analysis. I want to carry on my journey with a rational approach and total clarity in perception. I am trying to comprehend Quran not through translations, but through comparison with AL-KITAAB, the book of nature and natural laws regarding right and wrong. Hope you'll understand.
Comments by: Junaid On: 5/7/2011

32.Dear Shariq,  
I am in total agreement with you.  
"We cannot make scientific rules about abstract concepts and ideas." by SHARIQ  
Your above post contains wonderful ideas and information.
Comments by: pervez On: 5/8/2011

33.Dear brother Zubair,  
1. You said,  
"In my humble understanding natural laws are different from God’s decrees or commandments given  
in the Quran. People may ignore God’s commandments or decrees and they may not get hurt or die."  
How beautifully and with great simplicity you have disclosed a great secret of life but few listen here.  
Brother, That is why Allah has not instructed you categorically not to disobey a specific natural law.  
He has not included any such law in his commandments. For example he has not told us not to jump down  
from a high building otherwise you will break your head. Obviously, there is no need. However,  
disobedience of Allah's commandments/decrees may not give results to an individual in this life. That  
is why the belief in life hereafter makes an individual accountable. Otherwise, oppressors like our  
rulers are the winners. I wonder how a divine book can guide human beings without requiring belief  
in life hereafter. absolute insanity.  
2. Brother, I may tell you very frankly that I associate myself with none. I am not biased as for  
as world religions are concerned. I read all religions of the world without prejudice.They are all  
wisdom and human treasure of knowledge which is our heritage. If I reject Hindu mythology  
of worshiping idles because it doesn't appeal to my heart and mind, exactly in the same way  
I can reject anything in our religion. Life hereafter is truth. A lot of scientific research is going  
on now a days. We can not reject everything of traditional Islam in the name of Mullah and  
3. Life without faith in hereafter becomes ugly. All sensitive people with intellect having qualities  
of heart and mind have rejected and shown their disgust and hate for mortal life. Friends here  
are trying to interpret all Quranic Ayats concerning life and death for this worldly life only. After  
all why don't we think what are we looking for, beauty or ugliness?  
4. Let us look for beauty, let us search for peace of mind and soul. Let us hope for eternal life,  
Let us look for immortality of soul and give good news to the people. Hope of justice for  
oppressed, warning for the oppressors. If at all we don't find anything like that in the world  
religions(I am personally not of this opinion) as most of them have become expired medicine,  
let us write our own red or green book, compose our own music,sing our own song of beauty  
and wisdom and balance ,so that human soul live in peace and harmony. Let us look up and  
and not towards mud.  
5. Some one might dispose of my post just by saying SENTIMENTALITY. But sentiments and  
emotions are real life provided they are on the positive side of conscious energy, otherwise  
become dangerous. Intellect is mere a tool in the hands of your emotions and sentiments.  
Intellect alone is lifeless and doesn't come into action. Emotions and sentiments are the  
driving force. So we should watch our emotions and sentiments for their positivity or negativity.  
(C) Mai ab samja k dunia kooch nanhe dunia maira dil hai.  
badel janay sai iss k rang her aik cheese ka badla.  
Let us not underestimate emotions and sentiments. Research work is required in this field.  
Comments by: pervez On: 5/8/2011

34.Dear Brother Junaid,  
In USA, we have the “Freedom of Information Act”. Hence, the government cannot hide information forever. Here are some excerpts from my discussion with some folks regarding Bin Laden episode yesterday.  
Please stop fooling us. Bin was neither a revolutionary nor a mujahid or shaheed. Zionists used him to put brakes on world’s fastest growing “religion” Islam and create a rift between USA and so-called Islamic world. Bin’s activities hurt Islam and Muslims but aided Zionists. Sure he planned 9 11 but he would not have been able to carry it out so brilliantly without the assistance from Mossad and MIC. That is why Navy Seals were under order not to capture Bin alive. If Bin were captured alive and tried in a court, he might have spilled the beans. Nobody here wanted to take this risk. Hence, the order was to kill him. As soon as the DNA test results showed the guy standing in front of them was indeed Bin, they shot him in the head and chest to insure quick death. Bin is dead.  
I saw your uncle Anjam Chaudhary on CNN twice. I do not understand why CNN invited this idiot. He openly talked about more terrorist attacks on USA and UK. And he claimed it was alright to kill civilians. If he is so itching to kill Americans and British, why not move to Afghanistan and fight alongside Taliban? Why live in the UK and enjoy all the luxuries of living in the West? This is hypocrisy.  
I am not surprised you could not see anything good in the West. Like Qutb, his blind followers NEVER see anything good in the West.  
Here is what Mufti Muhammad Abduh had to say after visiting Europe.  
"In Europe I saw no Muslims, I saw Islam! In Egypt I see Muslims, I see no Islam!"  
The whole operation was videotaped and broadcast live to 3 centers of power in US, i.e. W, P, & C. They have the pictures and videos of the whole episode. Bin’s youngest wife and his 12 year old daughter have confirmed his death. Even Qaeda has accepted the fact that Bin is dead. Of course you have every right not to accept the facts.  
Regarding Mossad & MIC involvement in 9 11 alongside Bin, there is overwhelming evidence. I will not say anything more until I remove my picture and change my name. Here I will give you just a small hint.  
Mossad has its agents everywhere in the Middle East, even inside Saudi Arabia. These agents were born in the Middle East. Hence, they speak and act exactly like Arabs. They use Muslim names and even have Muslim wives. Their job is to hurt Islam and Muslims from within and, hence, aid Israel. For your information, that famous anti-West militant Imam, who called those 19 hijackers “The 19 Exalted” on his website, is actually a Jewish. And I have the proof. He lived in US before moving to UK.  
Comments by: Zubair On: 5/8/2011

35.Dear SS,  
Thanks for the beautiful quote from Dr. Qamar Zaman.  
“The fact is that everybody has the basics of morality inherently given to him. The books called divine books are the reminders of the same. People living in remote or distant places not knowing about divine books also know what is wrong and what is right.”  
I reached the same conclusion after studying the history and literature. Last year, I copied a beautiful song from our children’s English Literature book. I do not have the book with me and cannot verify the date of publication. Nevertheless, you can see that the message of the song is still valid. Actually, it applies perfectly to the situation people face in Pakistan today.  
In our country  
A useful man needs luck  
Only if he finds strong backers  
Can he prove himself useful.  
The good cannot defend themselves and  
Even the gods are defenseless.  
Oh, why do not the gods have their own ammunition  
And launch against badness their own expedition  
Enthroning the good and preventing sedition  
And brining the world to a peaceful condition?  
Oh, why don’t the gods do the buying and selling  
Injustice forbidding, starvation dispelling  
Give bread to each city and joy to each dwelling?  
Oh, why don’t the gods do the buying and selling?  
[She puts on Shui Ta’s mask and sings in his voice.]  
You can only help one of your luckless brothers  
By trampling down a dozen others.  
Why is it the gods do not feel indignation  
And come down in fury to end exploitation  
Defeat all defeat and forbid desperation  
Refusing to tolerate such toleration?  
Why is it?  
Comments by: Zubair On: 5/9/2011

**(In USA, we have the “Freedom of Information Act”. Hence, the government cannot hide information forever.)  
by Zubair  
Brother Zubair, I was in a tense mood since yesterday, feeling the heat of ongoing discussion and seeing an exchange of direct remarks between my fellow members, but your words made me smile :)  
I think I've already told you that you are a pure hearted person. Dear brother, It's a good quality and I wish you should always stay like that. Therefore I would say it's good that you believe those who told you there's a freedom act and "truth" cannot be hidden forever.  
Oh sorry!  
I think you used the word "information" and not "truth".  
My mistake :)  
And sir; I am really impressed with the song you shared.  
Good one boss!  
I was wondering;  
that if God is supposed to bring the world to a peaceful condition ...  
that if God is supposed to provide bread to each city and joy to each dwelling ...  
If God should feel indignation and come down in fury to end exploitation ....  
Then what are we here for? Why do we exist?  
You can only help one of your luckless brothers  
By trampling down a dozen others.  
I was trying to understand what does this word "Luckless" means?  
If someone is poor or deprived, does that mean he is unlucky?  
Or does that mean he is a victim of someones greed and selfishness?  
Or maybe it means there is a fault in our system?  
And who is this man? How can he help another man!  
He can't even help himself... How can he claim to help others?  
I was thinking, whether this song applies particularly to the situation in Pakistan or does it represent a worldwide situation?  
Anyway lets forget the poor Indians, Africans, Arabs, Afghanis, Palestinians, Mexicans, Panamas, Iraqis, Vietnamese, Indonesians, Japanese and so on ....  
Also lets not include the jobless Americans or Chinese coz they still are the part of two strongest nations in the world.  
What if jobless Americans are finding it difficult to survive?  
What if Chinese workers are living a miserable life?  
Who cares!  
Lets talk about Pakistan....  
But wait!  
Let me share a couple of facts and opinions I just read today;  
FACT: There are now 6 million fewer jobs in America than there were when the recession began. Of the 8.8 million jobs lost, only 1.8 million have returned. At this rate, it will take until 2018 to get back to full employment.  
OPINION: This is the “giant sucking sound' we were warned about 20 years ago. Those “cheap goods” have actually come at a great cost; the lack of a strong manufacturing base makes for a much slower recovery. You can't grow what you don't have.  
A jobless recovery is no recovery at all.  
FACT: China's real estate boom has sent housing prices up by 140% nationwide since 2007, and by as much as 800% in Beijing over the past eight years. Residential housing investment as a share of China's GDP has tripled from 2% in 2000 to 6% in 2011 — the same mark the U.S. housing market hit before imploding.  
OPINION: East, West, North, South, the human condition is the same... The Chinese won't be able to land this plane any better than Ben Bernanke. Remember when subprime was “contained”? China won't fare any better.  
FACT: At least 14 workers at Foxconn factories in China have killed themselves in the last 16 months as a result of the horrendous working conditions they endure manufacturing Apple iProducts. Things have gotten so bad that netting has been put up outside the dormitories, and workers are being made to sign “anti-suicide” pledges as a result.  
OPINION: The wage-slavery put upon the world through globalism is as shameful as the real thing. Economic miracle? Not quite... We would never accept such a thing here, so why is it okay if happens to human beings overseas?  
Think about that next time you power up your iPad.  
I guess I have a lot more to talk and a lot more to share but I should stop now!  
I don't want to get a title of Mr. Insane on this forum, for writing nonsense :D  
I think the song you shared, should be good enough for psychos like me to get back to real life.  
Actually the real life is quite beautiful.  
Lets just not look at the dark ugly portions.  
Lets just ignore all the bad things.  
After all God will come one day and correct everything ...  
Isn't it?  
So why worry?  
Comments by: Junaid On: 5/9/2011

37.Dear Brother Pervez,  
Thanks for your compliments. I agree with you completely. Actually, I have been thinking on the same lines for a long time. Our desire to live forever and enjoy a peaceful and blissful life free of pain and grief as well as death and disease springs from the same source that originated life. Also, history has witnessed that humans dream and, eventually, their dreams become a reality. Many of the modern discoveries and inventions were predicted in science fiction over 150 years ago. Today, many scientists are working tirelessly to stop disease and aging. Some believe their research will eventually lead them to immortality. I will share this information in more detail later.  
Comments by: Zubair On: 5/9/2011

38.Dear Brother Junaid,  
I support your quest for the truth. I believe nobody has the power to hide the truth forever. Truth always finds a way to reveal itself. American Govt. tried to hide the truth about Vietnam War. Did it succeed? The answer is no. CIA did dirty work around the globe. Was it able to hide it? Again the answer is no. The White immigrants, who settled in America, filled their history books with lies about the Native Americans. Who exposed those lies? Some honest White historians did it. Today, you can find many honest historians in USA. They refuse to accept their government’s version of events. They dig up the information themselves and expose all lies they find. I believe there were honest historians in every era. Otherwise, we would not have known the truth. Also, it is well known that information cannot be destroyed. It can only be transferred. We can talk about this stuff in the future. For now I will just recommend some books. Hopefully, they will help you in your quest for the truth. Last, I feel guilty about ignoring the translation job for so long. Hence, I will stay away from FB & the Forum for a while to focus on translation.  
Here are some books worth reading. I will include a link if the book or its review is available or a video related to the book exists.  
By Kenneth C. Davis  
The Five Gospels  
The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus  
Robert W. Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar  
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark  
By Carl Sagan  
Life: A Natural History of the First Four Billion Years of Life on Earth  
By Richard Fortey  
Humankind?: Planet Earth's Most Enigmatic Species  
By Arcas  
The Science of God  
By Gerald Schroeder  
The Hidden Face Of God: How Science Reveals The Ultimate Truth  
By Gerald Schroeder  
The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence of Belief  
By Francis Collins  
The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins  
“People are drawn to religion because they want to live forever & be reunited with loved ones in Heaven & I understand that I would welcome eternal life as much as anyone because the alternative is being dead forever & never feeling, thinking, or being conscious again & NO ONE wants that, not even atheists. However, I also recognize that REALITY is not influenced by us wishing for something more & we have no choice but to accept our fate I am an atheist but I don't pretend to be fine with death.”  
A comment on YouTube by Cane Fu  
The Greatest Show On Earth  
By Richard Dawkins  
All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror  
By Stephen Kinzer  
“Life is a journey of discovery – and change is the catalyst, the energy source, which propels us toward self-acceptance, unconditional love for others, and appreciation of life, and a relationship with God.”  
Dennis Wholey, author of “The Miracle of Change”  
NOTE: I wrote the above before I noticed your last post. Now I am going to read your last post.  
Comments by: Zubair On: 5/9/2011

39.Dear Junaid,  
Our friend Ellen, who is a graphic artist, told me a story about a family friend. They guy was very smart and lucky. He earned a PhD in the field he loved and found a teaching job at one of the most prestigious universities. He was married to his high school sweetheart and had beautiful children. Then, the problems of the world, such as wars, poverty, and hunger, started tormenting him. Finally, he ended his life to escape the agony.  
I too once worried too much about all kinds of miseries we see all over the world. Then, I realized I played no part in the creation of this miserable world. Whoever created this world should worry about it, not me. After further pondering, I realized that The Creator would not come to earth to solve our problems. We need to take care of us and our problems ourselves. How? If I could just become invisible, I would wipe out all the evil people from the face of earth. But this was not possible. I started thinking realistically and realized we need to change this world. How? We can do it step by step. The first step is to change ourselves and our families. Hence, my first focus was my own “self” and family. Did I succeed? If you visit our home, you will see nothing but “peace”. The same is the case at my workplace. I respect and help everyone. Also, it gives me some satisfaction that I am able to help some less fortunate students to complete their education.  
Now I am preparing for the next step. You may recall we talked about a mini project in our village. I learned that we still have our lots (plots) in the village. One is empty and other has two rooms. But the rooms are falling apart. Hence, we need to build at least one new room to set up the library and learning center. Hopefully, I will get a chance to visit Pak next year.  
When I read stories about killing, stealing, other crimes in Urdu newspapers, I often wonder what kind of parents these criminals had. If parents take responsibility of teaching some basic moral values to their children, we will see less crime and less misery in the world.  
Here is another interesting quote. What does it prove?  
The mind of man – how far will it advance?  
Where will its daring impudence find limits?  
If human villainy and human life shall wax  
in due proportion, if the son shall always grow  
in wickedness past his father, the gods must  
add another world to this that all sinners  
may have space enough.  
Hippolytus (428 BC)  
Comments by: Zubair On: 5/9/2011

40.Dear Zubair,  
I am really impressed by your beautiful thoughts explained in your above consecutive  
posts. This is the best approach to life. We must listen to our inner self. I fully agree with Doctor  
Qamer's quote,  
“The fact is that everybody has the basics of morality inherently given to him. The books called divine books are the reminders of the same. People living in remote or distant places not knowing about divine books also know what is wrong and what is right.”  
The question arises if we have guidance regarding morality inherently in our hearts than why we  
need reminders? Perhaps due to unfavorable environments in our upbringing, we loose our contact  
with the inner self and as a result can not differentiate beauty from ugliness. Than we need to further  
develop on the basics of morality inherently given to us, as life progresses with its complexities.  
I have been thinking on Allama Iqbal's thoughts regarding "AKEL" and "Ishk" for example just see  
this verse,  
What he wanted to say in this verse? If Gebrail meant wahi to him, did he meant some  
uncomprehending information given in Wahi which we reject if it is beyond our comprehension  
and understanding in the name of intellect(AKEL) and interpret to suit our understanding. What  
do you think?  
We can not dispose of Allama's thoughts in his verses like that of other poets. His poetry was  
much above normal poetry. Listen to this verse,  
Allama Pervez did criticize him on his these thoughts(AKEL AND ISHK). For quiet a long  
time I agreed with Allama Pervez but after thinking over a period of many years I arrived  
at the conclusion that Allama Pervez was not right in his criticism on Iqbal. I hope you must  
have read his book, "TASSAWAF KI HAKIKUT" a wonderful book. Please read if not already read.  
Comments by: pervez On: 5/9/2011

Brother Zubair, Don't worry, I am not on that stage yet. I mean yes these problems around me definitely disturbs me at times, but not in a negative sense. In fact I've been looking at all this in a positive way, trying to see if there are any possible solutions. And frankly speaking, I can tell you that I am not alone in this. There are lots of people who are trying to understand the faults in our system and who are trying to find solutions. I know it's too difficult to change all this but I am quite sure someone will do it someday. I have a strong conviction that If I cannot change things today, at least I can initiate a thought, at least I can contribute my efforts with those who might be able to bring around a positive change in future, no matter whether in my lifetime or after my death.  
I wish I could show you those people who are top of the line professionals, but they left their careers, their jobs, their commitments and now they are working for a noble cause. These people need no fame no money nothing, they are affiliated with no party, no organization and all of them are scattered around. May be someday they could be able to get themselves organized and probably they might succeed to give this world, something which is needed the most. And yes, you are also included in this list because through Aastana, you are doing the same kind of work, but in a different way.  
I am not sure how you are seeing things around you, but I can tell you that I have a different observation. Actually it is my profession which provided me a more closer look at the real facts and figures and probably thats why I can see things which others might not be noticing.  
Since last three years, specially after the recent global recession, I have interacted with various professionals around the globe, who are experts in the fields of banking, finance and economy. Almost every single individual has agreed to the fact that our current system is now on the edge of another global recession and this time there are not much chances for bail outs. I know you might not agree with me on this, and probably no one else would.  
Anyway, what I am trying to tell you is that your statement "I realized I played no part in the creation of this miserable world" is not entirely correct.  
Why ?  
Let me try and explain in simple words. (my apologies in advance, coz I know I am giving a very stupid example)  
Suppose you are on an island where there are 9 more people. You have been told that all10 of you are to stay on this Island for few years and that everything which you need to live, is available in abundance. That means you don't have to worry about food, shelter etc. However there is one condition, and that is, you all will have to earn some money to pay for you needs and without that money, no one will get anything. Unfortunately the overall amount of money on that Island is not sufficient enough to fulfill the need of all 10 of you. Now take a close look at this situation where you have all the commodities to fulfill your needs, but you need money to buy them and that money is scarce. Probably just to meet the requirements of 4 out of 10 individuals. According to this situation, only 4 of you will be able to meet their needs in terms of food, shelter etc, while 6 will have to stay hungry and shelter-less. Now lets assume that you are one of the lucky 4 people who somehow managed to earn their share out of the available money, tell me brother whether you would wholeheartedly say that you have got nothing to do with those 6 people who are still hungry, and shivering with cold, being without shelter?  
I know your answer will be a straight NO, if you are well aware of the fact that those 6 people are facing this condition because you 4 have taken all the available money, leaving nothing for them.  
If you are not aware of this, If you have no idea that these 6 people are suffering because you and three others have left nothing for them, you will keep on doing whatever you are doing and you'll keep enjoying your stay at that island.  
Dear brother, believe me or not, but this exactly is the situation of our economic system today. This commodity called money (the legal tender) is scarce to an extent that 4 out of 10 can fulfill their need, while 6 people will remain deprived.  
Also lets add another factor called debt. To tell you the truth, all the money which we have in our system is nothing but debt. Actually It is being created in form of debt and this debt is making things even more difficult.  
Now assume that, out of 10 people, one is in-charge of issuing money and he charges interest against every single penny he issues. Only three can avail this money since they own propertied or they have precious commodities to pledge as collaterals. This means the person issuing money, will give it to those 3 people and these three will have to race each other, to fight each other and get their share out of one another's pocket to pay the interest. In the end, the situation is that 1 person is issuing money and getting rich while 3 others are still doing good to an extent that they have money to spend and buy what they need while 6 are getting nothing. Unfortunately 1 out 3 who still have money, will have to lose something since the amount of money issued was limited and that the interest incurred is not available anywhere. This simply means that more debt will be issued to meet the interest and at least one of those 3 guys will have to default, losing his collateral and finally ending up in the category of 6 deprived ones. This process continues,  
No matter whether you realize or not, no matter whether you are aware of the miseries and problems of the 6 deprived ones, you will have to ignore all this because you have your own obligations to meet. you own money which is debt, and that you are supposed to pay interest on it. You have got no time to think about the deprived ones. You have got your own liabilities to handle, your own extraordinarily increasing overheads to meet. You can't even stop for a second and think about the deprived ones. This is what we all are doing and this exactly is the our world and our system. A balloon getting filled with air but unfortunately there s not much space left now!  
Dear brother, my apologies once again for giving such a stupid example, but my aim was to show you what is going on with our real lives.  
Now tell me one thing, do you still think we have no part in the miseries of this world?  
Me or you who still have sufficient money to fulfill our needs, and somehow we are successfully meeting our obligations, somehow handling the debt against the money we own, living a comfortable life, getting past those who are losing their properties, failing to meet their obligations. Do you really think we have got nothing to do with those who are deprived, even when we consuming what was to be shared by them too.  
I know you would say that you are earning your living through hard-work, doing your business or getting your monthly salary etc. No brother this is not true, and I can explain it to you, in detail if you are interested. I can prove it to you through proper analysis that every single $ you earn and retain, somehow has a negative effect on many lives. This is how it is, and this is how our system works, whether you accept it or not.  
What can we do in this situation?  
Of course we have the option to deny or protest against the unjust system of debt and scarcity. We can try and look for an alternate system. We could have refused to pay extra money to individuals to buy something which actually is being produced as a result of nature, or we could've minimized our consumption, allowing rest of the people to share with us. Lots of options isn't it?  
You said in your post above;  
**(When I read stories about killing, stealing, other crimes in Urdu newspapers, I often wonder what kind of parents these criminals had. If parents take responsibility of teaching some basic moral values to their children, we will see less crime and less misery in the world. ) by Zubair  
Dear brother, when people find no option to fulfill the very basic needs like food or shelter, when they can't get their share out of natural resources, moral values become the most meaningless thing in life. How can you expect from a hungry and deprived person getting suppressed by the hands of society, that he will teach his children "moral values"? Can his children eat moral values to survive? OR, can they use these moral values for shelter and healthcare? Come on brother please be realistic. Lets fact the thing called life!  
You wanna see less crime and less misery in the world?  
Then find a solution for removing injustice, hunger and poverty first.  
And you forgot to mention the biggest and more serious crime, the real cause of misery in this world;  
Let me tell you what it is :)  
It's called "Kleptocracy". Please search for this word on internet and you'll know what I am trying to say.  
I think you are right when you said that we should change ourselves and change our families. Yes I know brother, and I have already done that. I can assure you that my family is a happy family and you'll see nothing but peace in my home too. But one thing I must say that I am still not satisfied, not sure why though.  
I think we will have to change our overall mindset. I am not talking particularly about you and me, rather I am talking about everyone. You know the way we try and earn everything for our children, the way we try to keep them happy, expecting nothing in return. We need the same kind of commitment, not just for our children, but for the whole world.  
Remember. when the world will go down, when there will be hunger and poverty, when there will be chaos and anarchy, even our children will get get effected, because they are the part of this same world.  
As I have mentioned that the balloon is getting filled and there is not much space left, you can expect a bad situation anytime, anywhere. Today, tomorrow, One year, two year or may be 5 years, but it will definitely happen. This cannot go on forever now and when this economic crises, this recession will appear once again with all it's ferocity and cruelty, when people will get out of a state of "Normalcy bias" and will look for the alternate solutions, those who are today being called emotional fools or psychos, will be the ones who will provide these solutions.  
Oh and let me share another aspect, your statement "I realized I played no part in the creation of this miserable world" is not true in another sense.  
I am sure you will agree with me that US planes and drones are flying over Iraq, Afghanistan, most importantly Pakistan and now Libya too, bombing urban and rural areas, killing hundreds of innocent people every day and thousands, every month. I guess the TAX money payed by US citizens is being used to fuel these planes sending death from above. (Because TAX from the citizens, is the only option US government can use to sell it's treasury bills to Goldman Sachs and print new money to fill up it's already saturated, war based economy and to fund it's global military campaigns).  
Please excuse me if you are not living in USA or if you are not paying tax to US government, but in case you are, then you cannot say that there is no contribution from your side at all, in the miseries of this world.  
(My sincere apologies in advance, and I mean no offense).  
BTW you are free to call me a pessimist, an emotional fool, you can call me insane, psycho or whatever you feel like. You can also ask me to just shut my mouth and stay quiet. I wont take it as offense.  
In fact I am getting used to such titles being assigned to me and now I am thinking about using one of these titles permanently with my name :D  
And once again let me assure you that I would not end my life to escape the agony. I would rather try and find solutions and I will keep trying till I am alive!  
Comments by: Junaid On: 5/9/2011

42.Dear Junaid,  
As you know I am not an economist , spent 30 years of my life dealing with arms and  
ammunition, but your discussion with brother Zubair is so interesting that I am following it with keen  
interest. You are an expert and professional of this field. I am learning a lot.  
Dear brother I think there are mainly two systems of economy in the world. Capitalist system and  
Marxist system ie communism. Haven't you explained the drawbacks of prevailing capitalist system.  
Allama Pervez has written many books on the issue. His two books,  
(a) khoda aor sermaya dar.  
I believe you have read them because you told me that you have read the literature of Allama Pervez.  
Don't you think he gave solution to the problems and draw backs of prevailing capitalist system in his  
Comments by: pervez On: 5/9/2011

Brother Perwez, you are right indeed. Yes there are two systems being followed in the world, and in addition to that, I must tell you that another form of economic system known as "mixed economy" is generally being practiced today. A sort of mixture which includes private and government owned properties and businesses.  
As per my opinion, every system has it's own advantages and drawbacks. Mankind has been using trial and error methods to learn and improve. However, in the current scenario, where the elements of greed and selfishness are being looked at as a priority, you wont see any of these systems working at their best.  
Allama Perwez has beautifully explained the concept of a just system, NIZAAM E RABOOBIAT and he has definitely pointed out the draw backs of both capitalism and socialism. The issue is that great men like Allama Perwez have been doing their jobs but no one has ever tried to follow their suggestions. No one ever dared to challenge the current system and no one dared to implement practically, what these great scholars have been teaching us. I think it's not entirely our fault too, that we failed to implement such systems. And how can we? When no one cares!  
And when no one cares, what can few people like me and you do?  
In fact we the human beings, always feel comfortable within the systems, within the boundaries of our societies or communities. We normally don't realize the approaching hazards, until they start knocking us down. I am sure you must have read about such examples in the past and you must've seen few recent examples too. Actually there is on big factor which is known as "Normalcy bias" which prevents us to acknowledge the disastrous situation or forces us to underestimate the danger.  
We learn when we get the hit, we try to improve things around us and then we forget. As per my observation, AL-KITAAB, the book of nature tells us that a uniform system of prosperity cannot be implemented throughout the earth at the same time. It's the scheme of nature if you observe, that one hemisphere always remain dark while one remains in sunlight and this is a continuous process. You wont see a total darkness or a total light worldwide.  
I always use to think that when nature, when our Rabb has clearly defined the logic for us to see, how can we expect a global change at the same time. This simply means we can try and work for a change within our boundaries, within our hemisphere or within our side of the globe and later on it can can reach the other side.  
Brother Perwez, It's good to hear that you have a vast experience of arms and ammunition. In fact I was doing some research on arms and ammunition since last few years, not in terms of military strategy, but in terms of economics and money :)  
I am glad I can share some of the information with a person who can understand what I am trying to say.  
I would like to draw your attention towards the military expenditures during last few years, so that you can think and understand who got what as a result of all this wastage :(  
(This data has been collected from unofficial sources, according to the latest US dollar inflated rate, yet it's more accurate as compared to the deceiving official facts and figure.)  
You wont find it difficult to do some research on your own and confirm this;  
Cost of various important military equipment being used in Afghanistan and Iraq. (probably now in Libya too)  
You can see what US tax payers are paying, but you don't know and in fact those tax payers also don't know what they are getting in return;  
Global Hawk $15 million  
Predator RQ-1 $ 4.5 million  
Average Cost of operation, (Fuel R&D and maintenance inclusive): $ 20000 / hr  
F16 A/B: approx. $ 30 million  
F16 C/D: approx. $ 40 million  
F16 E/F $ 55 million  
F-16IN $ 80 million  
Minimum fuel cost for F16 at max range cruise: $13000 / hr  
and it goes beyond $20,000 including afterburn and the wait on the runway  
Also dont forget that every sortie costs around $ 1 miilion for maintainence  
F/A-18 C/D : $29 Million  
F/A-18 E/F : $57 Million  
F/A-18 Super Hornet: approx. $75 million  
min fuel cost at max range cruise: 20000 / hr  
$ 27000 including afterburn and waithing on runway / carrier  
Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit: approx. $ 1.27 billion (including R&D cost)  
Chinook Mk3s: approx. $35 million  
Chinook CH47F: appprox. $22 million  
Chinook stealth (used in OBL operation in Pakistan): approx. 55 million a piece  
UH60M Blackhawk: approx. $14million  
MH-60G Pave Hawk: $10.2 million  
AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-ground missiles: approx. $50,000 a piece  
Thermobaric version AGM- 114N: approx. $ 85000 a piece  
GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided bomb : $20000 a piece  
GBU-31: approx. $ 25000 a piece  
GBU-38 JDAM : approx. $ 35000 a piece Plus extra cost of GPS and guidance system  
This year coalition aircrafts dropped 4615 bombs, in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, already exceeding the the 4185 dropped last year.  
(I wish they would've dropped those billions of dollars in form of cash instead. At least that could've changed the living standards of thousands)  
On the other side, Taliban are equipped with cheap yet strong anti-aircraft missiles for example SA-7, heat-seeker missiles, stingers and a new no.2 stinger (what they call it), Plus they have very effective RPGs which still remainsthe most lethal weapon system used in theatre  
Perhaps many US tax payers ddoesn't even know that apart from the stealth chinook lost in Abbotabad few days ago, they recently lost another $ 55 million in form of 12 drones which were destroyed in Afghanistan since last  
few months. (The lost chinooks, black hawks and F/A 18s during last few years are not included in the list,  
but they can be searched through internet for sure).  
Last but not the least, a lot of US tax payers have no idea that almost 22000 containers have been found missing since last few years, while they were being carried to Afghanistan via Pakistan. These containers hold complete, disassembled Black Hawks, Chinooks, some high class missiles and probably some F-16s and F-18s too (according to a reliable yet unconfirmed report). This means billions of Dollars are found missing and if CIA does not have the custody of these containers within Pakistan, then no one will ever know where they are gone. Probably the poor Indians will know some day when they'll find these high class, precision weapons and equipment, banging their heads, for attempting out of their curiosity, some sort of action similar to what US did in Abbotabad.  
Anyway, Billions of Dollars in form of bombs, fuel, maintenance, logistics, surveillance and raids, lost containers etc. and all at the cost of TAX payer's money, but for what?  
The answer is very simple. To keep their faulty economic system running.  
That is why I call US economy a war based economy.  
BTW: The US citizens have been enjoying a high standard of living and this "we can do whatever we want" thing, just because the world needs their currency, the US $ for international trade and to purchase oil or other resources.  
Now SDR is approaching fast and I am not sure what will happen to the US economy, where the debt is already multiple times their GDP, which is already sitting on the edge of another economic collapse, a great recession and all due to unlimited war expense, and when they will realize that they can't just simply print $s to settle the interest on their outstanding debt.  
In fact I also don't know what will happen to the countries still pegged with US dollar, mostly Dependant on foreign aid, buried under enormous debts having no other alternate and still subservient to the corporations who wont even offer a glass of water to the visiting US president once SDR is introduced.  
NOTE: My apologies in advance to all the NRPs residing in US, working and paying Taxes to US government. No offense intended and if someone asks you about where the tax money you are paying is being spent, You can always quote Mr. Bukhari where he says; "Wallah Alam Bil sawaab"!  
Comments by: Junaid On: 5/9/2011

44.Dear Junaid, good point which we need to ponder on………  
Junaid :“If you are not aware of this, If you have no idea that these 6 people are suffering because you and three others have left nothing for them, you will keep on doing whatever you are doing and you'll keep enjoying your stay at that island.”  
Mubashir : It’s like my personal security and compensation I expect for my hard work to live in luxury which makes others hunger.  
Every individual from middle, upper middle and rich are holding back resources of other people in the name of security and luxury which they think is their Haqq as they work hard. So when individuals hold back resources its for very obvious others might die of hunger. Now common man who is holding back is not wrong as well as he might need resources for medical, future of children and his old age. If he does not hold back resources he would find no helper when he is need. Again this doesnt mean humans are bad and not helping each other, its the system which we live in. Every individual will have his own needs and he might not be capable of consistently helping others.  
So if someone does not save then he is not secure, if he saves then it affects others.  
" My personal security.............others hunger."  
Solution to this Ugly situation is a Central Administration System (Salath ) , when central system takes care of all the needs of human then we might not need to save anything.  
For example lets consider Western system which strives to provide medical assistance, home for old and pension, and which provide basic job for everyone who is ready to work.  
Example of western system is considered just to have a picture of how a good system would help. Generally people try to point out negatives of western system over the issue which we are discussing.  
Lets see the positives and not implement the negatives out of that system and those guide lines are provided in Islam to have a Perfect system.  
Basic principle of economics...........keep spending keep economy rolling. The moment people start saving economy slows down.  
Just 2 cents with my meager knowledge, please correct me if am wrong..........  
Mubashir Syed.
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 5/9/2011

Brother Mubashir, your post reminded me of a friend who asked me a question, few months ago.  
The question was;  
Who is smarter? Monkeys or men?  
Without wasting a single moment, I replied 'men". But the person said I am wrong and then he successfully proved it.  
He gave me the example of our monetary system which proves that monkeys are smarter than men :) ... Let me try and explain how;  
When monkeys feel hungry and they see fruits (lets say bananas) hanging on a tree in the jungle, they simply climb the tree, pluck the banana and eat it. On the other hand, when a man feel hungry and he sees baskets full of fruits in a shop, he will not be able to eat those fruits until he has the money to pay for. A system, which has been designed by the so called "human beings", prevents that man from consuming those fruits due to unavailability of "money", proves monkeys as smarter and men as fools.  
There are two very basic draw backs of our economic system. First one is that the money, which is supposed to be a thing and which is supposed to facilitate us, is actually being considered as a commodity. Our economists and bankers have designed the system in such a way that this commodity known as "Money" is always scarce, as compared to the total amount of goods being produced. The reason behind this scarcity is nothing but to create an unnecessary need in order to attach interest as a factor to it. You see, the legal tender, the medium of exchange for goods and services, yet it's scarce.  
As I have mentioned in my previous post, every system has it's advantages and the disadvantages. Banking services can be used to provide financial assistance to the society and this is it's advantage. It can also be used to exploit the financial system and this is it's disadvantage. Likewise, money can be used to facilitate the transactions and serve the community or it also can be used to exploit the economy.  
Actually the current design is based on exploitation, both in terms of money and banking. As I have mentioned earlier, money is being created as debt against security, with a certain amount of interest attached to it. The banks create this money out of nothing, in order to facilitate the financial activities in an economy i.e production and consumption of goods and services either by government or by private sector.  
This simply means that the amount of money being created has to be returned along with the interest, but unfortunately the additional amount of money in form of interest does not physically exists, which means creation of more money and more debt to meet the previous obligation. A chain that goes on and the interest mounts on.  
Normally the money is created in form of M0, M1, M2 by banks through treasury bonds/ bills and fractional reserve system. This is another lengthy topic, thats why I would prefer not to discuss it here.  
The amount of money is controlled through interest rates, by central banks which are either government controlled, such as in Pakistan / India or controlled by third party, for example US FED.  
As I have mentioned earlier, the main draw back of our economic system is that money is created as scarce. Why?  
Let me try and explain;  
The main purpose of economics is to produce goods and services which are needed by the society. The total amount of goods and services produced in the society in a given period of time is known as GDP. Now lets assume that the amount of money available in the country or the society at a given period of time, is equal to the total amount of goods and services being produced. This means the overall purchasing power of the society is equal to all the goods produced and all the services. In such a situation, who will need more money? And why would anyone pay interest to acquire money? Thats simple isn't it? But actually it's not that simple because our economists and bankers have designed the system in a different way. A design based on artificial scarcity of money, to fill the gap with interest.  
Lets assume that the value of goods and services produced in a certain period of time is X. Now according to the current design, the net value of physical money will be Y and the gap will be filled by Interest which is Z.  
This make our equation like this: X = Y+Z where time is constant.  
Here the question arises, why do we have this kind of system? Why not a simpler version?  
The answer is that this system is designed by the bankers to satisfy their greed. They create "Y" and keep it less than "X" to earn "Z" which is actually their income. Apparently, this system is working fine and no one seems to have any problem as such. However the fact is that the interest or "Z" comes with a cost. In fact this interest is the non existent factor which means that it is in access to the total amount of money available at a given period of time. Where would this excess money come from? The simple answer is "from no where". "Y" was the actual debt, and Y+Z is to be returned. now we cannot return this amount i.e (Y+Z) since Z does not exist anywhere.  
This access money will have to be created in form of another debt, carrying more interest. Here comes the point where the system gets out of control. Let me show you how!  
Our previous equation: X = Y+Z, gets disturbed, as soon as new money (lets say E) is created to cover Z, because this E carries another additional value (Lets say A) in form of interest. This amount "A" disturb the equation in a sense that (Y+E+A) becomes more than the actual value of economy which is X.  
What I mean to say is that the new amount of physical money plus the interest gets higher in value as compared to total production in form of goods and services. A gap (Lets say G) is created which requires additional production of either goods or services or probably both. (X+G = Y +E+A)  
Before this equation becomes too complicated, let me explain that this gap is actually unwanted, yet it needs to be filled. This is done through creating extra needs using media campaigns or creating pointless activities which may be in form of wars or something like paid sports / recreation or may be a trip to moon :)  
Interestingly, when the gap gets filled we realize that the interest that is "A" is again not available in physical form and it needs to be created as further debt. This means a new gap on the other side of equation, which will be filled by added consumption or another event, then again the additional interest which needs another debt and the cycle goes on and on.  
I am sure you can see that what looks normal to all of us is actually something completely abnormal and the worst effect of this added interest and added gap can be seen globally. Debts owed to the countries are now multiple times higher than the GDPs and things are getting worst. A race is going on and individuals are suffering from hunger and poverty, while wealth is circulating among very few hands. Few players are the participating in the game of musical chair while rest of the population is being forced to work more, to earn more and consume more.  
On the other hand, those who fail to catch up in this race gets nothing in the end. Having no money makes their purchasing power null and therefore they are not allowed to fulfill their basic needs.  
Brother Mubashir, I am not sure whether I was able to explain the concept or not. However I can tell you is, that the only solution to our economic problems revolves around two basic factors.  
1: Issuance and ownership of money by Nation/society/government and not by banks.  
(state should control the money supply with reference to demand and growth)  
2: Amount of money should be equal to the total value of goods and services produced in a given period (GDP).  
(Growth in in terms of GDP should be adjusted by adding equal amount of money)  
These two factors will remove the need for interest and saving both, and it is a practical way to reduce inflation, while avoiding stagflation.  
I remember you have asked me to share the alternate economic design, but unfortunately it is still incomplete. However I have made a summary which includes all the basic points regarding handling GDP growth, issuance and distribution of money.  
I've already sent it to your your inbox and I would request you to go through it and share your comments.
Comments by: Junaid On: 5/10/2011

46. Dear Br Junaid,  
I think you understand money and may be your solution will resolve the problem. I think the similar explanation of the problem is given in the following video.  
Zeitgeist - Federal Reserve  
I feel the issue is insincerity, dishonesty and greed that cause people to systematically corrupt any system which is built on principles to create justice and peace. When the trust reaches to that stage when common people loose sight of the evils behind the plan of their leadership.  
Comments by: Anwer Suri On: 5/29/2011

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