TOPIC: Islam >> Beliefs
Q.  
 
IS INCEST, AS A PARTICULAR SEXUAL BEHAVIOR, ALLAOWABLE OR NOT ALLOWABLE IN DEEN AL-ISLAM?  
 
IF ALLOWABLE, WHY? IF NOT ALLOWABLE, WHY NOT? PLEASE GIVE AYATS.
By: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

1.Nargis, Moazzam, Junaid, Yellow Cow,  
 
25:33 And they cannot bring thee a question, but We have brought thee the truth and the best explanation.  
 
I especially want your Quranic ilm on this matter, thanks.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

 
2.Dear Dhulqarnain and all Participants! It should be noted that, i always try to provide the sense of the verses not the exact translation.  
The fisrt verse of Surea 25 is to declare that, Alkitab is a book, which discreminates HAQQ FROM BATIL.  
HAQQ = MENTIONED IN VERSE 25/2.  
BATILL = MENTIONED IN VERSE 25/3.  
Now go through the verses 25/4-8 , here the attitude of Kuffar to make the status of ALKITB and RASOOL belittle/degraded has been mentioned.  
See to the verses 25/9-12, here the denial of judgement day (time of mukafat e amal) from kuffar's side, whareas, assurance of Allah for the said day (time of mukafat e amal) has been described.  
Now see the verses 25/13-29, here the scenario of reward and punishments after accountability process has been described in some details.  
Read the verse 25/30-31, here the major cause of their Kufr has been described, which is the denial of QURAN(ALKITAB). One of their false objection was that, why prophet of the time (rasool) not mad understood(nuzool) this Quran(Alkitab) all togather/at once.  
Certainly, this is , because the subject( any problem) should always be addressed issue to issue on the basis of RATAL AL QURAN, in fact, is a much more better way to satisfy your self. And to enlighten them about any problem/issue with an excellent elaboration. see verse 25/32-33.So each and every query/problem will be addressed by RASOOL with an excelleny elaboration in each era.  
Remember;I have already explained the Quranic term RATAL in detail at this blog  
Comments by: moazzam On: 7/9/2011

 
3.Moazzam,  
 
Thank you for your reply, however, you did not answer my question, or perhaps you did, but your position/answer to my question is not clear to me at all.  
 
Here’s the question again.  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowable or not in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
You can begin by stating:  
 
yes (it is allowable)  
 
or  
 
no (it is not allowable).  
 
Then you can provide the ayat which supports your position.  
 
Please, answer directly, no circuitous/having to guess what you mean, replies, thanks.  
 
Answer this question as if it was put to you by a 12 year old little child.  
 
Dhuulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

 
4.Yes he did answer the question and even more. His post can be summarized in one word, that is  
 
SUBJECT/ TOPIC  
 
The Quran deals with differences between haqq and Batil  
 
The subject in the Quran is NOT sexual behaviour (homosexuality,bisexuality,peadophilia, incest), the subject of 25 is NOT sexual behaviour (homosexuality,bisexuality,peadophilia, incest) whatsoever.  
 
Zina and Fahsha is explained in the other thread. The references brother Moazzam posted MUST, MUST be studied and then one can ask what sexual behaviour have to do with kuffars denial and twisting of Al kitab in (surah 25) etc.  
 
But you wont understand anything because you don't read the references and you discuss the Quran through the orthodox translation. If you know it all, then what's the point of discussing at all? Because we rejected all the orthodox translation and the mullah thoughts of the Quran being a book of regulations for sexual behaviour.
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/9/2011

 
5.Nargis,  
 
***Yes he did answer the question and even more. His post can be summarized in one word, that is***  
 
Nonsense! Neither of you have answered this question! Both of you do nothing more than dodge and then dodge some more, please.  
 
***SUBJECT/ TOPIC The Quran deals with differences between haqq and Batil. The subject in the Quran is NOT sexual behaviour (homosexuality,bisexuality,peadophilia, incest),***  
 
PLEASE STOP ALREADY WITH THE FALSE PREMISES, OKAY?!  
 
I’m not saying that sexual behavior is THE SUBJECT/TOPIC of Al-Quran. Al-Quran covers MANY TOPICS AND SUBJECTS! Does it not?  
 
***the subject of 25 is NOT sexual behaviour (homosexuality,bisexuality,peadophilia, incest) whatsoever.***  
 
I’m not asking you about 4:25, I’m as asking a particular sexual behavior, and does Al-Quran, anywhere, address it? If someone, a child, a parent, a teacher, a Jew, A Christian, and atheist, a bum, whoever, came to you on the street and asked--is incest allowable or not in Deen Al-Islam or stated “what does your Salaa command you in regard to incest, you are REQUIRED to answer in one of three ways:  
 
YES  
 
NO  
 
I DON”T KNOW  
 
If your answer is either yes or no, then you are REQUIRED to bring the ayat to prove your position! If your reply is a yes or no, then youu must provide ayats, otherwise, you mislead yourself and others.  
 
***Zina and Fahsha is explained in the other thread. The references brother Moazzam posted MUST, MUST be studied and then one can ask what sexual behaviour have to do with kuffars denial and twisting of Al kitab etc. ***  
 
I’m not asking you about zina, fashah, haqq, batil, mushriks, or kuffars, right now. I’m asking you about a particular sexual behavior--incest, that’s it.  
 
***But you wont understand anything because you don't read the references and you discuss the Quran through the orthodox translation. If you know it all, then what's the point of discussing at all? Because we rejected all the orthodox translation and the mullah thoughts of the Quran being a book of regulations for sexual behaviour.***  
 
ENOUGH with the excuses and dodges, Nargis, ENOUGH NOW! No more false premises, no more dodging, and no more ad hominens, OKAY?! I read very well! and, I understand when things are plain to me.  
 
Now, if you truly want me to understand, then answer my questions directly, how’s that?  
 
So, ONE MORE TIME.  
 
Is incest, as “a” subject/topic” and, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it allowable (provide the ayat or ayats)  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it not allowable (provide the ayat or ayats).  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
This is a VERY EASY REQUEST TASK!  
 
Looking forward to your reply  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

 
6.Dear Dhulqarnain, answer to your question has already been given by Moazzam and Nargis. Quran is not sex book, it DOES NOT TALK ABOUT SEX. After understanding words as listed by Nargis this question seems to be very weird from what i call MENTALLY deceased Humans who are deceived with this act which is exaggerated .  
 
Let me ask a question to you on similar lines...............  
 
Is Answering NATURES CALL in Living room in front of others, as a particular act( behavior), allowable or not in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
IF ALLOWABLE, WHY? IF NOT ALLOWABLE, WHY NOT? PLEASE GIVE AYATS.  
 
With no intention to offend or defend...................  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.  
 
 
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 7/9/2011

 
7.Mubashir,  
 
***Dear Dhulqarnain, answer to your question has already been given by Moazzam and Nargis.***  
 
No, they answered to a question other than the question I asked them. I don't know what you're talking about, son.  
 
***Quran is not sex book***  
 
Who says that it's a sex book? I've never said that.  
 
***It DOES NOT TALK ABOUT SEX. After understanding words as listed by Nargis this question seems to be very weird from what i call MENTALLY deceased Humans who are deceived with this act which is exaggerated .***  
 
If it doesn't talk about sex as "a" topic/subject, then incest, as a sexual behavior, is perfectly permissable for mankind to engage in. Is this REALLY your position, Mubashir? Go on the record and answer plainly. Yes it is or no it's not.  
 
***weird from what i call MENTALLY deceased Humans who are deceived with this act which is exaggerated***  
 
What, exactly, is exaggerated? Anyway, you cannot refer to someone as a MENTALLY deceasd human for engaging in incest, because they can say that ,God, according to you, Nargis, Moazzam, state that God does not rule on it. They can then say that you are a MENTALLY deceasd human for not engaging in incest. You see...you have no argument against them.  
 
***Let me ask a question to you on similar lines............... Is Answering NATURES CALL in Living room in front of others, as a particular act( behavior), allowable or not in Deen Al-Islam? IF ALLOWABLE, WHY? IF NOT ALLOWABLE, WHY NOT? PLEASE GIVE AYATS.***  
 
You think you're funny but you're not. Nothing about these lines are similar. Do you really think someone defecating on someone's living room floor in front of others, is even remotely similar to someone's family member engaging in incest, in secret, with their child?!? What the hell is wrong with you?! You know what, maybe Allah may try you now in this fashion...so you can see how similar the lines are. What an absolutely inane comment on your part.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
 
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

 
8.Salaam;  
I wonder why sex and adultery, which can be seen as the favorite topic in the religious books of Jews got so much attention of orthodox translators!  
In fact the Jews in earlier times, out of their hatred for the only crime on earth i.e. adultery, tried their level best to declare stoning to death as it's punishment. They failed to locate any such verse in Quran which could be used to support this concept, therefore they came up with a new theory that two verses regarding stoning to death were written on a leaf which was eaten by a goat, so stoning is the right punishment and that adultery is the worst crime on earth. Well they really hate adultery and that's a fact. Probably that is the reason why they can't think about any other crime on earth except adultery.  
 
I was also wondering whether Quran is a book of criminal / penal codes or is it a distinction between right and wrong, a charter of humanity, a book of permanent values!!!  
 
OR  
 
Does it only talk about;
 
SEX ... SEX ... SEX ... SEXUAL BEHAVIOR .... ADULTERY .... HOMOSEXUALITY .... SEXUAL INTERCOURSE ... SEX BEFORE AND AFTER MARRIAGE .... ONE MAN AND 4 WOMEN ... CONCUBINES .... PUNISHMENT ... 100 LASHES ... INDECENT CLOTHING ... INDECENT SEXUAL BEHAVIOR ... SEX ... SEX ... SEX ....  
 
I guess now I am discussing the favorite topic of Dhulqarnain and he will have no problem with all these words!!!
Comments by: Junaid On: 7/9/2011

 
9.junaid, you forgot to mention :- Paedophiliasexualbehaviour and incestsexualbehaviour and secret loverssexualbehaviour.
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/9/2011

 
10.Dear Dhulqarnain, no way was i tryin to be funny. Please find my comments inline.  
 
Brother, not sure why people conclude that when something is not discussed in Quran would mean it is permissible?? So question is on same lines, answering natures call in living room is permissible or not and SEX for any sort of negative impacts it might have on individual or as a society is permissible or not. Quran neither rules bout sex nor how nature call should be answered.  
 
Dhulqarnain : What, exactly, is exaggerated? Anyway, you cannot refer to someone as a MENTALLY deceasd human for engaging in incest, because they can say that ,God, according to you, Nargis, Moazzam, state that God does not rule on it. They can then say that you are a MENTALLY deceasd human for not engaging in incest. You see...you have no argument against them.  
 
Mubashir : Mentally deceased Humans are not specific to incest. Its general for ALL Humans we are all deceased. Not sure if further discussion on making you understand all about sex behavior might actually help. Coz it is tough even for rational people to understand something which was discussed under below link. So it might be a long journey for you to remotely think on those lines. Nevertheless here I go, please go through below thread and feel free to disagree (if possible after a thought )……….  
 
http://aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=609  
 
State of confusion will never end until you observe nature and match it with Quran. Coz product and catalog should MATCH. Not me Allah says this is not answer/proof but only a conjecture, if so is the case then every religion is right coz their respective book as the proof might be given. Blind faith…………….  
 
Note : If something has to be regulated then you need to cut it from root. Trimming leaves is no permanent solution.  
 
----------------------------------------  
Dear Juanid for traditional religious people guidance starts from eating/drinking, Restroom, bed and rituals to fulfill religious erg and somehow ends with results of hearafter hoories.  
 
Note : I think People need entertainment ( sex and violence )even while looking for guidance………..:)  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 7/9/2011

 
11."""Dear Juanid for traditional religious people guidance starts from eating/drinking, Restroom, bed and rituals to fulfill religious erg and somehow ends with results of hearafter hoories""""  
 
Thats why they are obsessed with sex and sexual issues, and cant understand anything. so its better to leave them in their own fantasy world, they wont listen anyway.
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/9/2011

 
12.Dear Nargis, you are correct the question is similar to below scenario........  
 
Even with traditional understanding this question is like, if say all fruits are forbidden then someone is asking is apple also forbidden........:)  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 7/9/2011

 
13.Or in other words  
 
"Okayy okayyy so if Apples are allowed, you mean that sugar and carbs are allowed in a diet, huh huh tell me tell me? do you mean one can be fat and unhealthy? hu hu tell me show me the aya show me where does it say proteins are not good for you, " Yes or no, yes or no yes - If it was Yes or no we wouldn't need a book
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/9/2011

 
14.Lemme ask one question here to everyone;  
 
Are these two things legal in Islam?  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikah_Misyar  
AND  
http://alhujat.tripod.com/Aqd-e-Mutta.htm  
 
If yes then whats the point of discussing adultery ?  
If no then where is the proof from Quran?
Comments by: Junaid2 On: 7/9/2011

 
15.Hello everyone.  
I have to ask one question that all of you say quran is telling us not to do adultery and not to watch porn movies.  
My problem is that I watch porn movies every weekend since my childhood and I am in a habit of staring at girls in a bad way. I also have sexual relation with two of my friends who are not my wives plus I am a gay too. I saw that out of marriage sexual relationship is called zina and watching porn movies or staring at girls is fuhaashish.  
If you all are correct and quran tell us that zina and fuaahish is equal to mushrik and a zani can marry only zaania, then does it mean I am a mushrik too and what should I do now because i cannot find a girl who is zania so that i can marry her. How will I know that this girl is zaania or that girl is zaania when no one do adultery in open and it is not written on the forehead of a girl that she is zania and I want to marry 4 girls at a time because it is allowed in Islam. How will I find 4 zania girls and can you help me with it? Also please tell me how I become mushrik for doing adultery or for watching porn movies and for being a gay when I believe in one God and I believe in salaah as a divine system of God and not a prayer.  
 
JazakAllah  
Perwez1
Comments by: Perwez1 On: 7/9/2011

 
16.Nargis, Junaid, Mubashir, Yellow Cow, Pervez. Moazzam,  
 
I presented you with a very easy yes or no question, yet, not one of you will answer yes or no and then give the ayat from Al-Quran to prove your assertion. You, instead, prefer to dodge, mock, indulge in ad hominems, make excuses, ignore, go off on tangents, present false premises, distort positions etc. Why won’t you, if for nothing else, argument sake, answer the question as presented? What is the problem? What you sorely don't understand is this, your dodging does not refute my position nor does it defend/concretize your own. No, to the contrary, by dodging you confrim/legitimize my position while totally invalidating your own. LOL! Don't you know that?!  
 
That you won’t respond plainly with a yes or no and then provide the ayat to support your position, tells me that you’re just plain afraid, because you know inside you are not being honest/truthful. Those who have the truth never dodge, mock, indulge in ad hominems, make excuses, ignore, go off on tangents, present false premises, distort etc, they simple address the issue head on. Listen, you don't kid me...so...you think you kidding Allah? Wake up, already!  
 
I really hate to say this, but you’re behaving like phonies and cowards. Maybe one of you will have the backbone/intellectual integrity, at some juncture or another, and step up and answer the question as presented.  
 
Is incest, as “a” subject/topic” and, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it allowable (provide the ayat or ayats)  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it not allowable (provide the ayat or ayats).  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
This is a VERY EASY REQUEST TASK!  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

 
17.Nargis, Junaid, Mubashir, Yellow Cow, Pervez. Moazzam,  
 
I presented you with a very easy yes or no question, yet, not one of you will answer yes or no and then give the ayat from Al-Quran to prove your assertion. You, instead, prefer to dodge, mock, indulge in ad hominems, make excuses, ignore, go off on tangents, present false premises, distort positions etc. Why won’t you, if for nothing else, argument sake, answer the question as presented? What is the problem? What you sorely don't understand is this, your dodging does not refute my position nor does it defend/concretize your own. No, to the contrary, by dodging you confrim/legitimize my position while totally invalidating your own. LOL! Don't you know that?!  
 
That you won’t respond plainly with a yes or no and then provide the ayat to support your position, tells me that you’re just plain afraid, because you know inside you are not being honest/truthful. Those who have the truth never dodge, mock, indulge in ad hominems, make excuses, ignore, go off on tangents, present false premises, distort etc, they simple address the issue head on. Listen, you don't kid me...so...you think you kidding Allah? Wake up, already! All you're doing is:  
 
6:112... inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception...  
 
I really hate to say this, but you’re behaving like phonies and cowards. Maybe one of you will have the backbone/intellectual integrity, at some juncture or another, and step up and answer the question as presented.  
 
Is incest, as “a” subject/topic” and, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it allowable (provide the ayat or ayats)  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it not allowable (provide the ayat or ayats).  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
This is a VERY EASY REQUEST/TASK!  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

 
18.I can come with many childish questions like that;  
 
1: Is rape allowable in Islam? On what basis it is allowed? (provide aayats containing the exact word rape and don't try to hide behind fasaad this time coz "Fasaad" doesn't mean RAPE).  
2: No rape is not allowable in Islam. On what basis is it not allowable (please give aayat or aayats)  
3: Is extortion allowable in Islam? On what basis it is allowable (please give aayats containing the word extortion).  
4: No exrortion is not allowed in Islam. On what basis (please give aayaats )  
5: Is fraud or cheating allowable in Islam? On what baisis it is allowed? (please give ayaats)  
6: No fraud or cheating is not allowable in Islam? On what basis (please give aayats)  
7: Is drug smuggling allowable in Islam? on wht basis? (please give aayats)  
8: No drug smugling is not allowable in slam. On what basis (please give ayaat)  
9: Is stealing or robbing allowable in Islam? On what basis is it allowable? (please give ayaat from Quran)  
10: No stealing or robbing is not allowed in Islam. On what basis (please give ayaat from Quran)  
 
What your point dude?  
I just noticed there are several posts and several comments which provide complete answers to all your questions but you are not even reading them!!!  
AND  
You have not provided a single logic which justifies a linkage between SHIRK and ZINA. SHIRK is a rlationship between RABB and human beings while ZINA is entirely a personal act performed by two individuals and which cannot be stopped by others.  
AND  
Look at what you think of the status of women. Do you think they are sheep or cattle? Are they commodities and not human beings like you or me? Oh come on mate. Stop this serious kind of gender discrimination. Be reasonable and behave like the people you are living with. The country you are staying in is the biggest advocate of women's rights and look at you!!!  
 
Who is behaving like phonies and cowards? You or us? Ok if it's us then why you didn't bother to answer a simple question I asked in the very beginning that how many words apart from salaat have been wrongly translated by traditional interpreters? (I m afraid you'll have to answer this question first if you want answers to your questions).  
Show that you have your backbone and answer clearly. Point out other wrongly translated words if you think there are few. Or simply say that there is other word except salaat which has been translated wrongly.  
 
And please ask some reasonable questions coz I am getting fed up of these childish queries where you are beating around the same bush again and again!  
Is this mentioned in Quran? Is that mentioned in Quran?  
You think you are allowed to skip all the questions and ask meaningless questions on your own?  
Why are you wasting your time as well as the time of others through such pointless questions?  
Why all major crimes which are causing so much damage to humanity are not mentioned particularly in Quran?  
Why only adultery and sex related matters are specially mentioned again and again using different words?  
 
Just go through all the posts and check how many comments you haven't even bothered to read and see how many questions you ignored altogether.  
 
Let me say it once again;  
STOP WASTING OUR TIME COZ THERE ARE OTHERS WHO ARE SERIOUS AND WANT TO LEARN SOMETHING FROM THIS BLOG!!!  
 
YOU DONT BELIEVE IN QURANIC TEXT RATHER YOU BELIEVE MORE IN WHAT THAT GUY ABDUL MANAN OR WHATEVER SAYS. YOU ARE SIMPLY TRYING TO HIDE THE TRUE CONCEPTS BEHIND A MEANINGLESS THING CALLED ADULTERY AND YOU ARE CONSTANTLY PRESSING OTHERS TO GET INTO A MEANINGLESS DEBATE.  
THIS ACT OF YOURS IS CALLED SHIRK WHERE YOU TAKE HUMAN BEINGS AS AUTHORITIES TO INTERPRET QURAN (YOU ARE NOT EVEN BOTHERED TO ANALYZE THE CONTEXT OF THE VERSES YOU ARE QUOTING). THIS IS ZINA WHERE YOU YOURSELF ARE NOT SURE ABOUT MANY THINGS YET YOU ARE TRYING TO FORCE YOUR HALF BAKED AND FALSE UNDERSTANDING ON OTHERS. THIS IS CALLED FAHASH WHERE YOU ARE FORCEFULLY ADDING CONCEPTS BORROWED FROM JEWS INTO QURAN.  
 
Comments by: Junaid2 On: 7/9/2011

 
19.Junaid,  
 
LOL! Do you see? You continue to bear out my assertion that you, and the others, are behaving in a cowardly and phony fashion. Once again, your ad hominem/dodging ramble addressed everything EXCEPT what was asked of you. LOL! Don't you find that really really interesting? Wouldn't it be far far easier just to answer directly rather than continue to cover up and dodge and go of on tangents? Ahh, you're finished. You should stop posting until you can get honest with self and others.  
 
Is incest, as “a” subject/topic” and, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it allowable (provide the ayat or ayats)  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it not allowable (provide the ayat or ayats).  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
This is a VERY EASY REQUEST/TASK!  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

 
20.What part you dont understanad when said sextual behavioiur of any kind is not a topic or subject in Quran? It been said many times but you dont understand, why? If sextual behavioir is not subject in Quran, how can provide ayat? Why you have not answared questions that was asking to you ? I will kollect them and post them here, so you can see you not answar
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/9/2011

 
21.Dhulqarnain;  
 
Do you think there are other words in Quran (apart from salaat) which have been wrongly translated by orthodox translators?  
 
I think you are the one who is acting in a cowardly manner and you have not answered a simple question I asked long ago.  
 
Probably this was a very easy question too!  
How can you expect answers from others when you are simply ignoring their questions?
Comments by: Junaid On: 7/9/2011

 
22.first questian from Junaid  
 
***What is the link between "an adulterer or a person (male /female) who commits illegal sexual act" and "a person who associates partners with Allah"? What is similar or common between an adulterer and an Idolater?  
 
Why a female who commits illegal sexual acts gets into nikah with none other than a male who is adulterer or a male who associates partners with Allah?  
AND  
Why a male who commits illegal sexual acts gets into nikah with none other than a female who is an adulterer or a female who associates partners with Allah? ***  
 
you not answar, next questian from junaid again  
 
***Brother Dhulqarnain;  
You said;  
**(I use the term/phrase Last Prophet, because Allah refers to him as the…khatama al-nabiyina. ) by Dhulqarnain  
 
I would request you to please confirm whether the term used in this particular verse is KHATAM or KHATIM !  
 
If it is KHATAM (with a zabar ), then please tell me what is the difference between KHATAM and KHATIM  
OR  
Are these two the same and it makes no difference whether it's KHATAM or KHATIM?  
 
Why am I asking this?  
Because I have seen people using the word "Khaatimah" (with a zer) in their common language in order to represent "END" while in 33:40, I noticed that it is "Khatam" (with a zabar) which sounds a but different. (Not sure why)  
 
And do you think the term PROPHET is an appropriate translation for the word ٱلنَّبِيِّ ? ***  
 
MIND, this questians are relation to your own words you write when mension khatam al nabi, still you not answar .  
 
Aftar this post junaid again askings  
 
***What is the linkage between MUSHRIK and ZAANI?  
What is common between these two terms? ***  
 
I find more questians you not answaring and i post here.  
 
Dhannewad
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/9/2011

 
23.Yellow Cow,  
 
***What part you dont understanad when said sextual behavioiur of any kind is not a topic or subject in Quran? It been said many times but you dont understand, why? If sextual behavioir is not subject in Quran, how can provide ayat? Why you have not answared questions that was asking to you ? I will kollect them and post them here, so you can see you not answar***  
 
You, as with Junaid, still have not answered the question. You stated above that, "sextual behavioiur of any kind is not a topic or subject in Quran". Okay, now answer the question based on your response. In other words, if someone asked you is incest ALLOWABLE or not in Deen Al-Islam, your first reply would be-- "sextual behavioiur of any kind is not a topic or subject in Quran". The person then asks you...okay, but, still is it ALLOWABLE or not?  
 
You must answer with one of the following replies, there is nothing else you can do.  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

 
24.Junaid also riquasted for translation of this verse but you not help with it and never translating full verse  
 
***My dear friend, I would definitely like to know how you translated this verse. See this;ٱلزَّانِى لَا يَنكِحُ إِلَّا زَانِيَةً أَوْ مُشْرِكَةً the word is يَنكِحُ and you have translated this word as "have sexual relations with". Why and how? Could you please provide a reference? As per my understanding, يَنكِحُ cannot be translated as "having sexual relations", by any means. emember, the suitable word (according to your own statement) for "illegal sexual relations" is ZINA and not يَنكِحُ As a matter of fact, يَنكِحُ represents the concept of NIKAH or a contract, which means the verse says; AL-ZAANI can marry / get into contract with none other than a ZAANIA أَوْ MUSHRIKAA. ***  
 
can you see cowardness ?
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/9/2011

 
25.Junaid and Yellow Cow,  
 
You continue to prove me right about you...behaving like scared phonies and cowards. The more you dodge the question the more you prove my point about your behavior and the strength of my question.  
 
I'm not going to address any other questions/going off on tangents, until you people show some intellectual honesty and courtesy and answer the following directly.  
 
Is incest, as “a” subject/topic” and, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it allowable (provide the ayat or ayats)  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it not allowable (provide the ayat or ayats).  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
This is a VERY EASY REQUEST/TASK!  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

 
26.Junaid and Yellow Cow,  
 
You continue to prove me right about you...behaving like scared phonies and cowards. The more you dodge the question the more you prove my point about your behavior and the strength of my question.  
 
I'm not going to address any other questions/going off on tangents, until you people show some intellectual honesty and courtesy and answer the following directly.  
 
Is incest, as “a” subject/topic” and, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it allowable (provide the ayat or ayats)  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam. On what basis is it not allowable (provide the ayat or ayats).  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
This is a VERY EASY REQUEST/TASK!  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

 
27.Then new question from Nargis  
 
***If someone is "guilty" of premarital sex or adultery get their 100 lashes (as suggested in the traditional translation), can they marry a pure chaste untouched believer?  
 
Why has God given the sentence for sex outside of marriage but not pedophilia or homosexuality?  
 
And why are not lesbians mentioned under the “azaab” for gays. Is it not written only for men who used to be ….errmm...? Not nice: D?  
 
What is their punishment according to the Quran?  
Is it a clear certain punishment for every crime (worse than adultery) given in the Quran, why only adultery?  
***  
 
you not answaring And you completly jump over Williams post  
 
Comments by: William On 04 July 2011 Report Abuse  
Dear all,  
 
24:3 The adulterer cannot marry with any but an adulteress or an idolatress, and the adulteress, none can marry with her but an adulterer or an idolater; and it is haram to believers.  
 
The translation to this verse makes no sense whatsoever! The clause itself is mainly directed at those commit adultery. If the above clause stipulates that an adulterer can only marry an “adulteress” or an “idolatress” (and vice versa), is this directed towards a divorcee? If a married man commits adultery, who is to say that the marriage will end? What if he is still married? The punishment for such an act, according to traditional translations is that an individual who commits “Zina” should receive 100 lashes (refer to 24:2). However, the penalty does not impose a divorce!  
 
The verse also states that “and it is haram to believers”. Does this section of the verse constitute that “Zina” is “haram” for the believers or is it stating that marrying an “adulteress or an idolatress” (and vice versa) is “haram” for believers? If one is to commit adultery, are they now classed as an unbeliever? How strange! (This may have been mentioned previously)  
 
For arguments sake, let’s go with the idea that the clause is justified, and that any “believer” who commits “Zina” must marry someone who has also committed “Zina”, why then would an “Idolater” / “idolaters” who are not “believers” in the slightest, be a marriage option for “believers” who commit “Zinah”?  
 
24:33 And let those who cannot marry remain chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace…  
 
Again, this verse makes no sense; it is suggestive that Allah intervenes in our lives, and this verse violates the concept of free will. I will provide a few ayas, based on the traditional translation, so that we can see why this is contradictory, and the need for Quranic revision.  
 
You will never find a change in Our Laws. (17:77)  
Your destiny rests with yourselves, now that you have been reminded. (36:19) (taken from QXP)  
 
As you can see, there is a complete contradiction with the above verse!  
 
4:3 And if you fear that you cannot do justice to orphans, marry such women as seem good to you, two, or three, or four;…  
 
This translation makes little or no sense! Is this specific to those adults who are not yet married and have taken on the responsibility of adopting an orphan? Why would this impact on regular citizens of the state? Is this verse in reference to orphans and marriage? (Yellow-cow has already written this I think – sorry didn’t realise until now, as I was about to post)  
 
Please share your thoughts  
 
Thank you  
 
Regards  
 
William  
 
 
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/9/2011

 
28.How many times you wont understand sexual behaviour is not a taopic in Quran, if not topic or subject, then not WRITTEN in Quran. Than noboddy can asking "what Quran say or Islam say about pendu phili or insesst". Does you understand this simple fact, if not writingin Quran, then not possible to refernece to Quran sepcifically. do you understnad ? Do you understanad what this meaning? i repeat again, if not written in Quran, noboddy can ask for refernce from Quran for anything. I dont belive you andarstanding. I think you create fitna and very cowardly argument without answaring any questians to you. you here to argue and faight, not to learn. Same thing saying many times to you but you ignore and fight. That is vast of time
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/9/2011

 
29.Yellow Cow,  
 
You're still running. Here, I modified the question so that you can get it.  
 
Even though you assert that sexual behavior is not a topic of Quran, the question, if put to you by someone, must still be answered. You, as a muslim, cannot dodge or refuse to answer. If you don't know, then, you must say you don't know. Not to give answer of either yes, no, I don't know, is impossible.  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
This is a VERY EASY REQUEST/TASK!  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/9/2011

 
30.Mai God You still doesnt andarstand. Becaus other reader here also, i will last time tell you  
 
****sexual behaviour is not a taopic in Quran, if not topic or subject, then not WRITTEN in Quran. Than noboddy can asking "what Quran say or Islam say about pendu phili or insesst". Does you understand this simple fact, if not writingin Quran, then not possible to refernece to Quran sepcifically. do you understnad ? Do you understanad what this meaning? ***  
 
You still not andarstanding, and asking again and again ***Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
****  
Oh mai God, you dont andarstand anything, naras write in post here Comments by:***** Nargis2 On 08 July 2011 Report Abuse  
Brother Bilal,  
 
WHATEVER YOU DO OR SAY IT SHOULD NOT STEAL AWAY SOMEONES RIGHT. *****  
 
STEAL SOMEBODDYS RIGHTS ARE CRIMINAL, DO ANDURSTAND THIS?  
 
there u has answar that is posted early but you donat understanad but ignore. Therfore everyboddy should avoid you becas u vasting your and others time, you not answar, or read others answars.
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/9/2011

 
31.Yellow Cow,  
 
On the contrary, I understand quite well. Don't you think I recognize when someone is dodging an issue, as you, Junaid, Nargis, Moazzam, Pervez, and Mubashir, are doing right now on this question of incest? This question has destroyed your notion that sexual behavior isn't addressed in Al-Quran, and well you and the others know it. This why you people are in such denial (denial is the reject of what one knows is the truth of something) about this topic and why you will ramble on and on addressing anything and everyhting except what you're asked to address. This why I refer to your's and the aforementioned people's behavior as cowardly and phony. Do you really think your fooling me?, my God, you can't fool yourselves? Please.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/10/2011

 
32.Brother Dhulqarnain! Don\t mind plz, in fact you are most frequently quoting ARTHODOX TRANSLATIONS NOT QURAN, which drags toward religion(THE COMBINATION OF DOGMAS,FUTILE RITUALS, MYTHOLOGICAL BELIEF ETC. wHAREAS ALLAH CALLS HUMANITY TOWARD "DEEN E ISLAM" WHICH PROVIDES ETERNAL VALUES OF SOCIO ECONOMIC CODE OF CONDUCT.  
Remember, there are certain things MENTIONED IN QURAN are HARAM, REST ALL OTHER THINGS WHICH ARE NOT HARMFULL TO MANKIND ARE HALAL.  
CONSULT THE EXPERTS OF EACH FIELD WHILE LAGISLATION, AND ARRANGE THE CONSTITUTION OF THE SOCIETY ACOORDING TO THEIR WILL/WISH UNDER THE ETERNAL VALUES PROVIDED BY ALKITAB.  
So you have to observe the society's constitution strictly where YES OR NO relevant to your questions could be find.  
As far as the legal status in "deen e islam" of adultry,incest, rap,are concerns, i dont think these are allowable in a muslim society, because there are harmful effects has been noticed in large. There should be legislation regarding intensity of crime and its punishment.REMEMBER QURAN PROVIDE VALUES ONLY.
Comments by: moazzam On: 7/10/2011

 
33.Maybi we are cowards, but you are mushrik. Quran protect human rhight, and that without have sex or sexual behaviour as partical topic. if you find penduphili or insesst homosex word in Quran, tell me.If everyboddy is fool, you smart, than you tell from Quran what word is penduhili,insesst or homosex. If you reference to 24:3, then you must translate it and answar every question people askings to your translation of 24.3. We will wait. And do you admitting you have jumped over many questions i again posted from other thread discassions?
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/10/2011

 
34.***WHATEVER YOU DO OR SAY IT SHOULD NOT STEAL AWAY SOMEONES RIGHT. *****  
 
***STEAL SOMEBODDYS RIGHTS ARE CRIMINAL, DO ANDURSTAND THIS?  
 
***there u has answar that is posted early but you donat understanad but ignore. Therfore everyboddy should avoid you becas u vasting your and others time, you not answar, or read others answars.***  
 
You still have not answered the question, Yellow Cow.  
 
All I want from you is to check one of the three following options. Can you do that simple task?  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
This is a VERY EASY REQUEST/TASK!  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/10/2011

 
35.Moazzam,  
 
You, as with Junaid and Yellow Cow, continue to dodge my question. You speak to everything but what is directly in front of you. As with Yellow Cow, all I want from you is to check one of the three following options. This is a very very easy thing to do. Running...is cowardly. There is no honor in it. It's time to top running and man-up Moazzam.  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
This is a VERY EASY REQUEST/TASK!  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/10/2011

 
36."Do you think that most of them hear or have sense? They are but as cattle—nay but they are further astray." (25:44) "The worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use their intellect to understand." (8:22) you realli cant see the answar is given to you, Allah said people like you have seeled your eyes and ears, senses nto working. Allah urging people not to talking with people like you. you donat andarstand stealing others right is not allowed, again you donat andarstand insesst/penduphilli is to stealing other peoples freedom and rhight. this is why its sad to talk to you becasue you donat andarstand and Allah say people like this not using their senses, they are worse than cattle. To leave people like this in their belief is not to running away, is saving time and intelligence.  
 
 
 
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/10/2011

 
37.  
Yellow Cow, you continue to make my point over and over again. :D  
 
You have no credibility until you man up and stop dodging the question put to you.  
 
Check one of the three following options.  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
This is a VERY EASY REQUEST/TASK!  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
 
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/10/2011

 
38.Mr. Dhulqarnain! save your time and others too, RE-READ MY POST.  
IT IS TOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH ABOUT THE SAID MATTER OF SEX SO FAR,TRY TO FIND OUT YOUR ANSWER BY READING BETWEEN THE LINES OR STOP TO GO FURTHER AT THE SAME TOPIC.
Comments by: moazzam On: 7/10/2011

 
39.Dont be coward and womanly, very EASY TASK/REQUEST, answar this questions. dogging away from them is not honour.  
 
**What is the link between "an adulterer or a person (male /female) who commits illegal sexual act" and "a person who associates partners with Allah"? What is similar or common between an adulterer and an Idolater?  
 
Why a female who commits illegal sexual acts gets into nikah with none other than a male who is adulterer or a male who associates partners with Allah?  
AND  
Why a male who commits illegal sexual acts gets into nikah with none other than a female who is an adulterer or a female who associates partners with Allah? ***  
 
***If someone is "guilty" of premarital sex or adultery get their 100 lashes (as suggested in the traditional translation), can they marry a pure chaste untouched believer?  
 
Why has God given the sentence for sex outside of marriage but not pedophilia or homosexuality?  
 
And why are not lesbians mentioned under the “azaab” for gays. Is it not written only for men who used to be ….errmm...? Not nice: D?  
 
What is their punishment according to the Quran?  
Is it a clear certain punishment for every crime (worse than adultery) given in the Quran, why only adultery?  
***  
 
 
***My dear friend, I would definitely like to know how you translated this verse. See this;ٱلزَّانِى لَا يَنكِحُ إِلَّا زَانِيَةً أَوْ مُشْرِكَةً the word is يَنكِحُ and you have translated this word as "have sexual relations with". Why and how? Could you please provide a reference? As per my understanding, يَنكِحُ cannot be translated as "having sexual relations", by any means. emember, the suitable word (according to your own statement) for "illegal sexual relations" is ZINA and not يَنكِحُ As a matter of fact, يَنكِحُ represents the concept of NIKAH or a contract, which means the verse says; AL-ZAANI can marry / get into contract with none other than a ZAANIA أَوْ MUSHRIKAA. ***  
 
 
I would request you to please confirm whether the term used in this particular verse is KHATAM or KHATIM !  
 
If it is KHATAM (with a zabar ), then please tell me what is the difference between KHATAM and KHATIM  
OR  
Are these two the same and it makes no difference whether it's KHATAM or KHATIM?  
 
Why am I asking this?  
Because I have seen people using the word "Khaatimah" (with a zer) in their common language in order to represent "END" while in 33:40, I noticed that it is "Khatam" (with a zabar) which sounds a but different. (Not sure why)  
 
And do you think the term PROPHET is an appropriate translation for the word ٱلنَّبِيِّ ? ***  
 
MIND, this questians are relation to your own words you write when mension khatam al nabi, still you not answar .  
 
Aftar this post junaid again askings  
 
***What is the linkage between MUSHRIK and ZAANI?  
What is common between these two terms? ***
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/10/2011

 
40.Dear Moazzam : LET DHULQARNAIN ENJOY THE LUST IN DISCUSSING THE MATTER OF SEX. AS YOU KNOW THIS IS THE MOST FAVERITE SUBJECT OF MULLAS.
Comments by: naeem sheikh On: 7/10/2011

 
41.Moazzam,  
 
Yep, just as I anticipated no checked off response yet. Just more baloney, dodging, and hot air.  
 
I don't want to read between any lines trying to guess what you mean. Why don't you be a man and speak directly to the question.  
 
You can save time right now by stop stalling, dodging, and making excuses why you won't answer a very easy question.  
 
If you don't don't comply now, then seriously, stop posting, because you will have absolutely no credibility. You can't be a phoney and be taken seriously. In addition, you look foolish by running like this. You present yourself like you know what you're talking about on the issues, yet, when confronted by this obviously easy question, you, all of sudden, run like a bunny rabbit being chased by a lion. You're exposed now, Moazzam.  
 
Check off one of the three following options...if you have the guts to. I don't think you do, though. You're just talk and flowery discourse, but no substance. That's weak, man, really.  
 
Anyway...  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
This is a VERY EASY REQUEST/TASK!  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/10/2011

 
42.Dear Dhulqarnain,  
You have been repeating this question again and again and nobody has bothered to answer it. Let's hear from you.  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
Regards,  
Waqar
Comments by: Waqar On: 7/10/2011

 
43.Naeem,  
 
Wow, good answer, well thought out. Yes, by all means, help them and yourself and run away!  
 
Running away is exactly what the defeated and cowardly do, rather than, simply man up or woman up and address the isue head on.  
 
My God, what weak and fraudulent behavior.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/10/2011

 
44.why havnt you answared questionses asked to you? I not sure, can you read?
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/10/2011

 
45.Waqar,  
 
Thanks for your reply, but the burden of proof is on Nargis, Moazzam, Yellow Cow, Pervez, Mubashir, Junaid, at this point. Once they answer I will definitely, post haste, reply.  
 
Perhaps you can encourage them to stop dodging and running, and stand up like a Muslim should.  
 
What is your answer to the following?  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/10/2011

 
46.Waqar, as you can see this insecure man jumped over every question and now cant even answar his own question. dhulqarnain you talk about running away, why you not answar questions asking to you like posted upstairs?
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/10/2011

 
47.Waqar,  
 
On the contrary, Wagar..I am very secure.  
 
But, why don't you show me how a really secure person, like yourself for example, behaves and answer the following question. What, are you INSECURE? Is this why you won't answer? :D  
 
LOL! You see, rather than answer the following questions, you would rather talk about me or go off on other tangents. Just like the others...you're a pretender as well. LOL  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/10/2011

 
48.Dont be coward and womanly, very EASY TASK/REQUEST, answar this questions. dogging away from them is not honour.  
 
Before you answar,just say YES OR NO if you will answar this questioins or not?  
 
Very easy question even for a insecure man like you, will you be a man and not coward and answar thie questions?  
 
**What is the link between "an adulterer or a person (male /female) who commits illegal sexual act" and "a person who associates partners with Allah"? What is similar or common between an adulterer and an Idolater?  
 
Why a female who commits illegal sexual acts gets into nikah with none other than a male who is adulterer or a male who associates partners with Allah?  
AND  
Why a male who commits illegal sexual acts gets into nikah with none other than a female who is an adulterer or a female who associates partners with Allah? ***  
 
***If someone is "guilty" of premarital sex or adultery get their 100 lashes (as suggested in the traditional translation), can they marry a pure chaste untouched believer?  
 
Why has God given the sentence for sex outside of marriage but not pedophilia or homosexuality?  
 
And why are not lesbians mentioned under the “azaab” for gays. Is it not written only for men who used to be ….errmm...? Not nice: D?  
 
What is their punishment according to the Quran?  
Is it a clear certain punishment for every crime (worse than adultery) given in the Quran, why only adultery?  
***  
 
 
***My dear friend, I would definitely like to know how you translated this verse. See this;ٱلزَّانِى لَا يَنكِحُ إِلَّا زَانِيَةً أَوْ مُشْرِكَةً the word is يَنكِحُ and you have translated this word as "have sexual relations with". Why and how? Could you please provide a reference? As per my understanding, يَنكِحُ cannot be translated as "having sexual relations", by any means. emember, the suitable word (according to your own statement) for "illegal sexual relations" is ZINA and not يَنكِحُ As a matter of fact, يَنكِحُ represents the concept of NIKAH or a contract, which means the verse says; AL-ZAANI can marry / get into contract with none other than a ZAANIA أَوْ MUSHRIKAA. ***  
 
 
I would request you to please confirm whether the term used in this particular verse is KHATAM or KHATIM !  
 
If it is KHATAM (with a zabar ), then please tell me what is the difference between KHATAM and KHATIM  
OR  
Are these two the same and it makes no difference whether it's KHATAM or KHATIM?  
 
Why am I asking this?  
Because I have seen people using the word "Khaatimah" (with a zer) in their common language in order to represent "END" while in 33:40, I noticed that it is "Khatam" (with a zabar) which sounds a but different. (Not sure why)  
 
And do you think the term PROPHET is an appropriate translation for the word ٱلنَّبِيِّ ? ***  
 
MIND, this questians are relation to your own words you write when mension khatam al nabi, still you not answar .  
 
Aftar this post junaid again askings  
 
***What is the linkage between MUSHRIK and ZAANI?  
What is common between these two terms? ***
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/10/2011

 
49.no no dont dog away answar questions and be a man, dont acting like a weak insecure ladymale.  
 
But, why don't you show me how a really secure person, like yourself for example, behaves and answer the following question. What, are you INSECURE? Is this why you won't answer?  
 
LOL! You see, rather than answer the following questions, you would rather talk about me or go off on other tangents. Just like the others...you're a pretender as well. LOL  
 
Dhannewaad
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/10/2011

 
50.Dhulqarnain  
 
Yep, just as I anticipated no checked off response yet. Just more baloney, dodging, and hot air.  
 
I don't want to read between any lines trying to guess what you mean. Why don't you be a man and speak directly to the question.  
 
You can save time right now by stop stalling, dodging, and making excuses why you won't answer a very easy question.  
 
If you don't don't comply now, then seriously, stop posting, because you will have absolutely no credibility. You can't be a phoney and be taken seriously. In addition, you look foolish by running like this. You present yourself like you know what you're talking about on the issues, yet, when confronted by this obviously easy question, you, all of sudden, run like a bunny rabbit being chased by a lion. You're exposed now, Dhulqarnain, you are exposed  
 
Check off one of the following questions ...if you have the guts to. I don't think you do, though. You're just talk and flowery discourse, but no substance. That's weak, man, really.  
 
Anyway...  
 
***What is the linkage between MUSHRIK and ZAANI?  
What is common between these two terms? ***  
 
 
**What is the link between "an adulterer or a person (male /female) who commits illegal sexual act" and "a person who associates partners with Allah"? What is similar or common between an adulterer and an Idolater?  
 
Why a female who commits illegal sexual acts gets into nikah with none other than a male who is adulterer or a male who associates partners with Allah?  
AND  
Why a male who commits illegal sexual acts gets into nikah with none other than a female who is an adulterer or a female who associates partners with Allah? ***  
 
***If someone is "guilty" of premarital sex or adultery get their 100 lashes (as suggested in the traditional translation), can they marry a pure chaste untouched believer?  
 
Why has God given the sentence for sex outside of marriage but not pedophilia or homosexuality?  
 
And why are not lesbians mentioned under the “azaab” for gays. Is it not written only for men who used to be …?  
 
What is their punishment according to the Quran?  
Is it a clear certain punishment for every crime (worse than adultery) given in the Quran, why only adultery?  
***  
 
 
***My dear friend, I would definitely like to know how you translated this verse. See this;ٱلزَّانِى لَا يَنكِحُ إِلَّا زَانِيَةً أَوْ مُشْرِكَةً the word is يَنكِحُ and you have translated this word as "have sexual relations with". Why and how? Could you please provide a reference? As per my understanding, يَنكِحُ cannot be translated as "having sexual relations", by any means. emember, the suitable word (according to your own statement) for "illegal sexual relations" is ZINA and not يَنكِحُ As a matter of fact, يَنكِحُ represents the concept of NIKAH or a contract, which means the verse says; AL-ZAANI can marry / get into contract with none other than a ZAANIA أَوْ MUSHRIKAA. ***  
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/10/2011

 
51.Salamun Alikum to all aastana members,  
 
let me introduce myself as Munawar Khan, I've been visiting this forum frequently and felt inline with most of the results of its discussions.  
 
Brother Dhulqarnain, your repeated question has pushed me to leave a comment on this discussion.  
 
Firstly to begin with, I liked your screen name which reads Dhulqarnain but disappointed that you belittled this attribute and exaggerated the topic by posing the same question even after many explanations given by Br. Moazzam, Sis. Nargis and other members of this forum.I salute their patience in this regard. This discussion reminds me Dr. Zakir Naik's example once he gave to his audience.  
 
The example goes like this:  
 
A Man gave birth to a child, can you tell whether its a boy or girl?  
 
The answer is NEITHER, because a Man cannot give birth.  
 
The same thing goes with you when you asked your intelligent question  
 
*****Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know. ******  
 
So, The Answer in NEITHER of your 3 choices, As explained before Quran doesn't detail sexual behavior , So where is the question of giving FATWA like a Mullah or Quoting verses in this regard.  
 
Am not as skilled as you in debate, but as far as I've understood the purpose and goal of AL-QURAN is that it gives you the Values and Guidelines to establish a Islamic state and welfare society.  
 
Allah has not given us each and every detail of human life and behavior instead he gave us the COMMON SENSE to decide what is good and what is bad as long as it protects the interest and rights of mankind in particular situation or time.  
 
Regards,  
Munawar Khan
Comments by: mmkhan20 On: 7/10/2011

 
52.Thank you Munawwar Khan: In fact Mr Dhulqarnain seems primary like student at this forum, who didn't pass even pre-requsits (the familiarization of quranic terminologies of Aastana),how can he understand the high class teachings based on the said terminologies.  
It is highly required to come out of the influance of religious intregues(Mullas), but poor Dhulqarnain is still is in their clutch. ANY HOW HE IS A VERY ARTICULATE AND INTELLEGENT GUY, AS REFLECTED FROM HIS DEBATE AT MANY ISSUES.  
He normally rely on orthodox translations.
Comments by: naeem sheikh On: 7/10/2011

 
53.  
So, The Answer in NEITHER of your 3 choices, As explained before Quran doesn't detail sexual behavior , So where is the question of giving FATWA like a Mullah or Quoting verses in this regard.  
 
Am not as skilled as you in debate, but as far as I've understood the purpose and goal of AL-QURAN is that it gives you the Values and Guidelines to establish a Islamic state and welfare society.  
 
Allah has not given us each and every detail of human life and behavior instead he gave us the COMMON SENSE to decide what is good and what is bad as long as it protects the interest and rights of mankind in particular situation or time. ******  
 
 
 
 
 
Thank you dear brothers Munawar and Naeem :)
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/10/2011

 
54.Munawar,  
 
The newest member to the Astanna Dodgers Debate Team, welcome! My, my, the list is growing! :D  
 
Nargis  
Moazzam  
Junaid  
Yellow Cow  
Mubashir  
Pervez  
Naeem  
Munawar  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam?  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
***So, The Answer in NEITHER of your 3 choices, As explained before Quran doesn't detail sexual behavior , So where is the question of giving FATWA like a Mullah or Quoting verses in this regard.***  
 
Okay, good, neither/none of the above. Just for clarity sake then, your position is that Allah Words/Al-Quran, in no way form or fashion, addresses the lawfulness or unlawfulness of sexual behavior/expression. This I assume captures your position, am I correct? I will proceed as if I am.  
 
***Am not as skilled as you in debate, but as far as I've understood the purpose and goal of AL-QURAN is that it gives you the Values and Guidelines to establish a Islamic state and welfare society.***  
 
Alright, let’s imagine then that the Astanna Group is successful in convincing millions to establish an Islamic state/welfare society or, in other words---establisj Deen Al-Islam. The name of the country is Astannastan. Astannastan, which is defined as an Islamic state, must, therefore, have as its basis of jurisprudence, --The Words of Allah/Al-Quran in order to insure the rights of its citizen and regulate interaction between them.  
 
Now along comes a group of some 100 people or so who are engaging in consentual incest with daughters, sons, mothers etc,. They tell you that they wants to be Muslims and a citizens of new formed Astannastan, but first, they must know if they can continue with their incestuous relationship with their daughters, sons, mothers etc. In America, where they current reside, the Judeo/Christian legal ethic prohibits their incestuous relationships.  
 
So, they then ask you and the Astanna Jurisprudence Council, the same members of the Astanna Dodgers Debate Team by the way, the following:  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
4. Neither/none of the above.  
 
If you answer neither, as you answered me, then they say, “well, fine, seeing how nothing in Deen al-Islam says no to our behavior, then we will come to Astannastan, be good Muslims, and continue happily have sex with our daughters, sons, mothers, fathers!”  
 
What do you and the AJC rule? Can they become a citizens of your Islamic State and continue to have consentual incestuous sex? What does your---common sense tell you? You see, you can't effectively rule against them, because no rights are being violated, the sex is consentual. So, do you make them citizens with the name of Allah and welcome them to your newly formed Islamic State or not?  
 
You don’t have to be a good debater to answer yes , no, I don’t know questions. What is requisite, however, is to be a truthful and sincere person when answering any question or making any statement.  
 
Looking forward to your reply.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/10/2011

 
55.To the Aastana Dodgers Debating Team, Peace.  
 
When you know that your argument has collapsed:  
 
1. Focusing on anything and everything but what is directly being asked.  
2. Indulge in ad hominems.  
 
Please feel free to address my comments to Munawar.  
 
It is just amazing to me how such an easy question with three easy options to check, have so shut you good people down that you run like this. I’ll tell you, I’m just amazed. I thought you people weren’t afraid of anybody or anything; guess all concerned were wrong on that account, yeah?  
 
Isn’t there just one of you with the courage to step up, just one? :(  
 
On Common Sense  
 
***Merriam-Webster Online defines common sense as beliefs or propositions that most people consider prudent and of sound judgment, without reliance on esoteric knowledge or study or research, but based upon what they see as knowledge held by people "in common". Thus "common sense" (in this view) equates to the knowledge and experience which most people already have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should have. According to Cambridge Dictionary, the phrase is good sense and sound judgment in practical matters ("the basic level of practical knowledge and judgment that we all need to help us live in a reasonable and safe way").***  
 
I have saying which used to appear at the end of my posts on other websites and it this:  
 
“Nothing can be understood outside of the context of Paradigm; Everything is in the Definition; and it’s all about the Motive.”  
 
First, what is paradigm? Paradigm, essentially, is a vast model/consrtuct or a “worldview”, from which one derives one’s core values, beliefs, perceptions, definition of reality, and---common sense. Common sense does not exist as a metaphysical concept, but is grounded in the everyday practical experience of human beings. Common sense, then, is based on one’s paradigm/worldview. Here are some examples of paradigms/worldviews:  
 
Deen Al-Islam  
Christianity  
Judaism  
Hinduism  
Capitalism  
Socialism  
 
As far as Allah is concerned, there are only two paradigms before mankind---Deen Al-Islam and Deen al-Kufr-Disbeleif. But in all actuality, there is only one paradigm before Allah—Deen Al-Haqq/The Truth or, simply, Paradigm Al-Tauhid (ayat 6:106). Any other paradigm is illusory, because it is an invention of mankind. This invention is known to you as—Ideology, the basis of al social formations today. By definition, an ideology can reflect truth and not reflect truth, because it is from man and not God. Examples of ideologies: Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Capitalism, Socialism. These paradigms certainly overlap and an individual will naturally draw from several, but what is important is what is their principle paradigm instructing them as to how to analyze data , make choices, conduct their lives, or determine what is common sense (sounds a lot like Salaa, yeah?).  
 
So when Munawar uses the term common sense, what paradigm is he or you drawing from to define--common sense? Judeo/Christian; Marxist; Sabian; Socialist...what? As I said earlier, common sense doesn’t exist as some abstract term, but is grounded in the historical experience of people; it is rooted in and derives from their worldview/paradigm. What is common sense to one paradigm may or may not be common to another. In regard to my question about the sexual behavior incest, what paradigm does Munawar use or you use to determine the common sense rightness or wrongness of incest as a sexual behavior? The problem for the Muslim is that, his/her principle paradigm, Deen Al-Islam, precludes him/her from drawing on other paradigms to make moral decisions, because that is defined shirk/giving partners to Allah in guidance. This is why The Quranioon reject hadiths, except, Hadith Al-Quran.  
 
What common sense moral code then, from what paradigm, will answer the question for mankind regarding incest as a sexual behavior? Does not Allah, via His Paradigm—Deen Al-Islam/Tauhid, legislate, that is, make halal/lawful and haram/unlawful for mankind?  
 
What does your common sense tell you about the following?  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
1.Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know.  
 
You see, if you respond with "neither", an attempt to be neutral, you, by default, make the behavior allowable, because you cannot or will not prevent it, because, as you claim, Al-Quran does not address sexual matters. That's common sense, right?  
 
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/10/2011

 
56.DEAR READERS AND MEMBERS,  
 
I THINK IT IS TIME TO TERMINATE THIS DISCUSSION, THE ANSWER HAS BEEN ANSWERED MANY TIMES. WE CANNOT IMPOSE OUR VIEWS UPON OTHERS WHO DO NOT ACCEPT OUR UNDERSTANDING, BUT USE THE HADITH BASED QURANIC INTERPRETATIONS.  
 
SECONDLY, IT IS NOW BECOMING PERSONAL AND TO THE BRINK OF OFFENSIVE. I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND YOU ALL ABOUT THE FOLLOWING:  
 
1. Please try to post questions under their relevant chapters/headings. Prior classification of the subject matter under its right chapter will afford an easy search for future referencing.  
2. If questions be short and precise, the answers will be swift and to the point. The space for questions is kept limited so as to serve the same objective.  
3. Please try not to post multiple questions in one start. That will unduly tax the answering mechanism and cause hardships at this end.  
4. This Quranic community believes in universal human fraternity and PEACE is the core message. All schools of thought and ideology are invited.  
5. Utmost respect for humanity is the basic policy. Therefore, civil manners, decency and politeness are advocated.  
6. No kind of rigidity, extremism, air of authority, religious edicts or final words are employed.  
7. The fundamental goal is to explore and discover the original logic, reason, rationality and wisdom of Quranic constitution that can be intellectually and empirically established in this scientifically advanced world. And to set it free from myth, miracles, fantasies, superstitions, dogmas and rituals.  
8. Use of impolite, offensive or abusive language and personal remarks of derogatory nature would disqualify you from AastanaBlog's membership.
Comments by: Maniza On: 7/10/2011

 
57.Dhulqarnain,  
 
Allah has given mankind the ability to learn research and act collectively for the betterment of self and all of the humanity.  
 
Thanks for giving the meaning of common sense, for me, the personal matters of humans how he/she has to sleep , how he/she has to bath, how he/she has to copulate and how he/she should use his/her gestures etc etc which are not intervened by Allah through his guidance in AL QURAN, has to be decided by the person and based on common sense (Common sense of all Paradigms) as such a question raised by Br. Mubashir Syed…  
****  
Is Answering NATURES CALL in Living room in front of others, as a particular act (behavior), allowable or not in Deen Al-Islam?  
******  
As commonly accepted common sense, Restroom is the place to answer natures call but not the living room.  
*****  
What does your common sense tell you about the following?  
 
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
1. Yes, incest is allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
2. No, incest is not allowable in Deen Al-Islam.  
 
3. I don’t know  
 
********  
For me, My Common Sense (Including Common sense of all Paradigms) and depending upon the research and previous experience of mankind on Incest subject (for more information check out the link http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32360) and its harmful effects towards the individual, family & society the Jurisprudence Council of the Islamic state can and should impose law to cut/limit/eliminate and should also conduct research to get to know the exact reason behind this sort of particular sexual behavior of incest.  
 
Now,  
For you, according to QURAN  
Is incest, as a particular sexual behavior, allowed?  
 
1. YES, Incest is allowable in Deen Al- Islam (Quote the reference ayahs).  
 
2. NO, then Why not (Quote the reference ayahs).  
 
3. I don’t know because I cannot use common sense.  
 
Munawar Khan  
Comments by: mmkhan20 On: 7/10/2011

 
58.Dear friends;  
 
Faculties of observation, thought and decision making using common sense and free will, are the characteristics of human beings and the basic factors behind human evolution. A species which has gone through a continuous process of learning, throughout it's history. Right from the primitive age known as stone age, mankind has used it's faculties to understand things using the senses of observation and thought. Human beings does not need any guidance to understand the basic laws of nature which have already been comprehended by their ancestors and passed on to the next generations. Fire has the tendency to burn, therefore one should not put his hand in fire, human beings cannot breath underwater, therefore no one would like to dive in the pond without knowing how to swim. Gravity pulls everything towards earth therefore no human being would jump from the hill. No one needs special guidance to understand that seed will grow and become a plant when sown underground and will eventually produce the fruit. These and many other aspects of nature have been clearly understood and being followed by mankind since the beginning. The process of reproduction is almost as old as history of mankind, and this means sex itself as well as social laws related to sex are as old as the human species. It is quite obvious that throughout the history of mankind, sex has been observed as a process of reproduction and therefore laws related to this particular human characteristic have been clearly analyzed. At this stage of life, in this era, no one needs guidance to understand the advantages or disadvantages of sex and reproduction related matters.  
As a general observation, it has been noted that we have been discussing this topic without classifying it into various segments like forced sex, prostitution and sex with mutual consent. There is a huge difference between these three categories or segments because the first case (forced sex) is a kind of aggression, second case (prostitution) is an act of fulfilling needs, while the third case (sex with mutual consent) reflects mental and emotional attachment between two human beings which is the most important aspect. A man and a women will not indulge into a sexual relationship unless there is a mental and emotional attachment involved (except is case of rape or prostitution). This mental affiliation results in a kind of relationship which is completely natural. Please note that nature does not differentiate sex and reproduction on the basis of man-made laws and a sexual activity will result in birth of offspring (regardless of whether a mullah recited few words and got them bound into Nikah or not). The concept of defining social laws started as soon as human beings realized the importance of collective living and this concept is almost as old as stone age. Sex and reproduction is a part of our social laws and these laws have gone through a lengthy process of observation and analysis, which means that at this stage of human evolution we do not need special guidance to understand these concepts, just like we don't need special guidance to comprehend the laws of heat or gravity.  
Having said that, I would like to share my understanding regarding Quran, which is a book, a message to human beings and it's basic purpose is to teach us what we cannot understand without proper guidance. Mankind has shown tremendous advancement in terms of science and technology yet it failed miserably to understand and implement the system based on peace and harmony. Throughout the human history, we can see wars, oppression, tyranny, aggression and suppression, whether it's the ancient civilization, whether its the ages of empires, whether its the stage of industrial revolution or whether it's the advanced stage of global civilization. We failed as human beings to eradicate wars, economic or social inequality, hunger and poverty and it happened because we have used our own trial and error based methods to handle our civilizations and never resorted to the ultimate guidance, which is available in form of AL-Kitaab (the book of nature). As a matter of fact we (the mankind) tried our level best to distort the message of Al-Kitaab due to our personal ego, greed, selfishness and self created discrimination on the basis of class, creed, race and gender etc. Whether the message was delivered in form of previous books or whether it was delivered in form of Quran, few selfish, greedy and ego driven individuals tried their level best to distort the message, misguide the masses and then take advantage of their ignorance.  
Quran contains nothing but the contents of AL-Kitaab (the book of nature) and it provides us ultimate guidance regarding implementation of a system based on peace and harmony, where there is no aggression, where there is no war, where everyone has open access to natural resources, where no one gets barred and where merit is the only criteria of success.  
It is very unfortunate that our ancestors failed to understand this concept and we inherited from them nothing but conjecture. We inherited man made laws, we inherited myths, we inherited dogmas, we inherited rituals and we inherited an entirely misinterpreted concept in form of religion based on sectarian division, class creed and gender discrimination, hatred, violence and extremism. If we compare ourselves to other civilizations, we will see a constant decline in our social, ethical and moral values. That is the reason why the so called "Muslims" are being considered as the most uncivilized and fearful nation throughout the world and it all happened because of our ignorance. People who left the path Siraat-e-Mustaqeem and adopted the path of those who have corrupted the laws of nature through man made religions. Ready-made Concepts were taken from Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians and were transferred to next generations who accepted everything without due investigation and passed it on to their next generation. This cycle went on and on, while our status kept declining until we reached the current stage.  
Ironically, majority of these so called "Muslims" are so self deluded about all the misinterpretations that they still insist nothing is wrong in these man-made concepts and that there is no need to re-visit these concepts which have caused so much deterioration. The best example can be seen here in form of those who insist that sex or incest is an important topic of Quran.  
 
Well, let me share the history of this term "Incest" here, so that the readers could understand that it is purely a matter of common sense, just like the characteristic of fire, water or gravity etc.
 
 
Incest is sexual intercourse between close relatives that is illegal in the jurisdiction where it takes place and is conventionally considered a taboo. The type of sexual activity and the nature of the relationship between people that constitutes a breach of law or social taboo vary with culture and jurisdiction. Some societies consider incest to include only those who live in the same household, or who belong to the same clan or lineage; other societies consider it to include "blood relatives"; other societies further include those related by adoption or marriage.  
 
It derives from the Latin incestus or incestum, the substantive use of the adjective incestus meaning 'unchaste, impure', which itself is derived from the Latin castus meaning 'chaste'. The derived adjective incestuous does not appear until the 16th century.  
Prior to the introduction of the Latin term, incest was known in Old English as sibbleger (from sibb 'kinship' + leger 'to lie') or mǣġhǣmed (from mǣġ 'kin, parent' + hǣmed 'sexual intercourse') but in time, both words fell out of use.  
In ancient China, first cousins with the same surnames (i.e., those born to the father's brothers) were not permitted to marry, while those with different surnames (i.e., maternal cousins and paternal cousins born to the father's sisters) were.  
The fable of Oedipus, with a theme of inadvertent incest between a mother and son, ends in disaster and shows ancient taboos against incest as Oedipus is punished for incestuous actions by blinding himself. In the "sequel" to Oedipus, Antigone, his four children are also punished for their parents having been incestuous.  
Incest is mentioned and condemned in Virgil's Aeneid Book VI: hic thalamum invasit natae vetitosque hymenaeos; "This one invaded a daughter's room and a forbidden sex act".  
It is generally accepted that sibling marriages were widespread at least during the Graeco-Roman period of Egyptian history. Numerous papyri and the Roman census declarations attest to many husbands and wives being brother and sister. Some of these incestuous relationships were in the royal family, especially the Ptolemies; The famous Cleopatra VII was married to her younger brother, Ptolemy XIII. Her mother and father, Cleopatra V and Ptolemy XII, had also been brother and sister. In Ancient Greece, Spartan King Leonidas I, hero of the legendary Battle of Thermopylae, was married to his niece Gorgo, daughter of his half brother Cleomenes I.  
Incestuous unions were frowned upon and considered as nefas (against the laws of gods and man) in ancient Rome.
 
In AD 295 incest was explicitly forbidden by an imperial edict, which divided the concept of incestus into two categories of unequal gravity: the incestus iuris gentium, which was applied to both Romans and non-Romans in the Empire, and the incestus iuris civilis, which concerned only Roman citizens. Therefore, for example, an Egyptian could marry an aunt, but a Roman could not. Despite the act of incest being unacceptable within the Roman Empire, Roman Emperor Caligula is rumored to have had sexual relationships with all three of his sisters (Julia Livilla, Drusilla, and Agrippina the Younger). Emperor Claudius, after executing his previous wife, married his niece Agrippina the Younger, changing the law to allow an otherwise illegal union. The taboo against incest in Ancient Rome is demonstrated by the fact that politicians would use charges of incest (often false charges) as insults and means of political disenfranchisement.  
 
In the 4th century BCE, the Soferim (scribes) declared that there were relationships within which marriage constituted incest, in addition to those mentioned by the Torah. These additional relationships were termed seconds (Hebrew: sheniyyot), and included the wives of a man's grandfather and grandson. The classical rabbis prohibited marriage between a man and any of these seconds of his, on the basis that doing so would act as a safeguard against infringing the biblical incest rules, although there was inconclusive debate about exactly what the limits should be for the definition of seconds.  
 
Please note that ancient civilizations have been working on social laws regarding "Incest" and this concept is very old. Something which was already recognized as bad practice in ancient times during the eras of Greek and Romans. Why would Quran talk about it and repeat the already understood concept after so many centuries?  
Sex which was the favorite topic of Jews and they discussed a lot about it in their books written by Jew rabbees, became the favorite topic of "orthodox translators", when the man-made concepts were passed on from Jews and Christians to so called "Muslim scholars" who were trying to invent a religion out of deen-e-Islam just to please the monarchs and autocrats of their times.  
I am sure all the confusion will be cleared once the translation of Sura - Al-Nisa will get uploaded here on aastana, and all of us would be able to see the real concept behind this Sura which has been used by traditional interpreters to emphasize on non issues instead of focusing on real issues.
 
 
Till then, I would request all the respected members to leave this topic as it is, and move on towards some constructive discussions, instead of wasting their time trying to convince the self delusion-ed Mr. Dhulqarnain who is completely obsessed with nothing but sex, polygamy and gender discrimination.
Comments by: Junaid On: 7/10/2011

 
59.A child asked his father wat he did to give birth to him. Father never replied to which child assumed many a things and asked him to give answer of such a siple question.  
 
Moral of story: Kids need to grow up to understand things..........father knew his kid might not understand his answer.  
 
Mabadaulat
Comments by: Tabrez On: 7/11/2011

 
60.Peace to All,  
 
Incest, the crime of having sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild; any sexual activity between close relatives (often within the immediate family) irrespective of the ages of the participants and irrespective of their consent; sexual activity between individuals so closely related that marriage is prohibited; sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest  
 
The question now is, is incest allowable in Deen Al-Islam and, has Allah addressed this issue in His Quran? To begin, Al-Quran is a moral guide and to imagine that Allah, given the great individual and social harm that results from the misuse of sex, and has not ruled on incest, is inconceivable. The genetic problems associated with incest, not to mention the psychological problems , would be enough for Allah to rule on this subject. Of course there is no such term as “incest” in Al-Quran, but is the concept of incest addressed, that is, does anything in Al-Quran preclude such a behavior from occurring. My position is yes, it does. Common sense demands a “yes” answer. All notions, ideas, concepts, of what is moral have their origin with Allah, The Creator. It is He who taught man what he knew not. Some may argue that shaitan , likewise, teaches what is moral, but that would be incorrect. Shaitan, teaches what is immoral.  
 
Certainly incest has been both rejected and accepted by various groups and peoples down the ages right up to the time Al-Quran was revealed to the Last Prophet. Some here have argued that incest, as well as some other sexual behaviors, is wrong and that this is common knowledge so why should Al-Quran bother with it or sexual matters in general? My response to that is simply this; Al-Quran is referred by Allah as—The Reminder. To be reminded of something is not to informed of something for the first time, but to be reacquainted with something forgotten. Al-Quran, as a revelation and a guide, will also inform of something not previously known.  
 
There is no denying that incest is a sexual behavior on the part of at least one willing participant. Sexual behavior, Deen wise anyway, is always juxtaposed with the institution of marriage (being married or not being married). The Quranic term for marriage is nikah, though many here at Aastana are loathe to accept this. The following ayats, 4:22-25, discuss who is allowed to enter into nikah with whom. Those whom one is forbidden to enter into marriage or have sexual relations with , as they would be considered to be relatives, to still marry or have sex with them would be incest.  
 
In Deen Al-Islam it is Allah who determines what is moral and what is not moral, not man. Those here who would argue that Allah has not addressed the concept/ issues of incest and the rightness and wrongness of other sexual behavior in Al-Quran, are now stuck with the following problem. If those here were successful in establishing an Islamic State, which, jurisprudence speaking, would have to be based on Al-Quran, then in the matter of what is sexually allowable and what is not sexually allowable would not be determined by the State, but by each and every individual. If the Islamic State decided to outlaw, for arguments sake, consensual incest, the Muslims who would want to practice this behavior would argue by what right has the State to impose its will in this matter. Allah hasn’t disallowed it so why should you ( isn’t this, essentially, what Shuaibs’s people argued with him in 11:87?)? What gives the State the right to decide what is moral and what is not moral when it is Allah who decides what is moral and what is not moral? Do you see where this goes given your understanding? This is just common sense.  
 
4:22 Do not marry the women who were previously married to your fathers - existing marriages are exempted and shall not be broken - for it is a gross offense, and an abominable act.  
 
4:23 Prohibited for you (in marriage) are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, the sisters of your fathers, the sisters of your mothers, the daughters of your brother, the daughters of your sister, your nursing mothers, the girls who nursed from the same woman as you, the mothers of your wives, the daughters of your wives with whom you have consummated the marriage - if the marriage has not been consummated, you may marry the daughter. Also prohibited for you are the women who were married to your genetic sons. Also, you shall not be married to two sisters at the same time - but do not break up existing marriages. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.  
 
4:24 Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you.* These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.  
 
4:25 Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women.* Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/11/2011

 
61.Junaid,  
 
***Ironically, majority of these so called "Muslims" are so self deluded about all the misinterpretations that they still insist nothing is wrong in these man-made concepts and that there is no need to re-visit these concepts which have caused so much deterioration. The best example can be seen here in form of those who insist that sex or incest is an important topic of Quran.***  
 
Man made laws are fine so long as they do not contradict the Laws of Allah. Nothing wrong with traffic laws, yeah?  
 
***Well, let me share the history of this term "Incest" here, so that the readers could understand that it is purely a matter of common sense, just like the characteristic of fire, water or gravity etc. Incest is sexual intercourse between close relatives that is illegal in the jurisdiction where it takes place and is conventionally considered a taboo. The type of sexual activity and the nature of the relationship between people that constitutes a breach of law or social taboo vary with culture and jurisdiction. Some societies consider incest to include only those who live in the same household, or who belong to the same clan or lineage; other societies consider it to include "blood relatives"; other societies further include those related by adoption or marriage. Please note that ancient civilizations have been working on social laws regarding "Incest" and this concept is very old. Something which was already recognized as bad practice in ancient times during the eras of Greek and Romans.***  
 
Doesn’t Allah, in ayat 2:185, refer to His Words/Al-Quran as The Furqan/The Criterion?  
 
2:185 The month of Ramadan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the Criterion…  
 
Well, if humanity would accept The Furqan, then human sexual behavior, and what would constitute incest, are detailed in ayats 4:22-25 for any and all to see (below). Everyone would be on the same page regarding the rightness and wrongness of any conduct, sexual included. No problem.  
 
***Why would Quran talk about it and repeat the already understood concept after so many centuries?***  
 
Who do you think first gave mankind the rules regarding sexual behavior? Was it Allah or was it man? This is why Al-Quran is referred as the Reminder, because people can and do forget and/or misunderstand.  
 
16:44 With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.  
 
But, invariably, people fall into this:  
 
26:5 And there does not come to them a new reminder from the Beneficent God but they turn aside from it.  
 
The folllowing ayats, among others, for me anyway, determine lawful and unlawful sexual relations.  
 
4:22 Do not marry the women who were previously married to your fathers - existing marriages are exempted and shall not be broken - for it is a gross offense, and an abominable act.  
 
4:23 Prohibited for you (in marriage) are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, the sisters of your fathers, the sisters of your mothers, the daughters of your brother, the daughters of your sister, your nursing mothers, the girls who nursed from the same woman as you, the mothers of your wives, the daughters of your wives with whom you have consummated the marriage - if the marriage has not been consummated, you may marry the daughter. Also prohibited for you are the women who were married to your genetic sons. Also, you shall not be married to two sisters at the same time - but do not break up existing marriages. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.  
 
4:24 Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you.* These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.  
 
4:25 Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women.* Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
 
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/11/2011

 
62.Dhulqarnain again post 4:25, then explalin old questions from other thread posted .Earli asked question about 4:25 who is again used by you must be explained.  
 
Here they are  
 
Let’s have a look at orthodox translation of 4:25  
 
*** And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women,  
 
*why is the word muminati used for women in this verse, while it muhsinat alnisa is used in the verse before it, 4:24?  
 
*why is al nisa and muminati translated as women in both verses, if it’s about being a believer, then the same word al nisa is used in 2:183-187 for women of the fasting “believers”...  
 
*what “means” are needed to marry a believing woman?  
 
*what “means” do believing women need to marry “believing men”?  
 
*i thought the Arabic language doesn’t have a "third" gender, so it’s words are either feminine or masculine gender, it means that words for “arm” or “leg” can be of feminine or masculine gender. The word itself does not determine the content, so how do we know muminati are women?  
 
***Then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens;  
 
*why not the need of means while marrying a slave? Are not the mahr rules same whoever one marry? Why are slaves mentioned at all, Islam does not allow slaves?  
 
*What about slaves from Ahl kitab? Or is it like only "free chaste women from ahl kitab" (ref 5:5) are allowed?  
 
*what about male slaves and women who can’t afford for their marriage with “free believing men”?  
 
***And Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other;  
 
• Who denied Allah’s knowledge since it was necessary to remind them of that all of the sudden?  
 
• They are sprung from each other, yet the discrimination between free believing woman and a slave?  
 
• They are sprung from each other, still the men are been told what women they can pick and choose, but the same rules are not given to women?  
 
• They are sprung from each other, still female slaves are to be picked and chosen by men, but the slave can’t choose men among her “owners”?  
 
***so marry them with the permission of their masters,  
 
*thought they were spring of each other, yet a “permission” from her “master” is needed?  
 
***and give them their dowries justly,  
 
What dowries are prescribed for men from women? What dowries are prescribed at all?  
 
***they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women.  
 
Okay, again the one and only sin, (ouuuhhhww,,, I’m shaking while I’m typing the word, I can see demons and Diablo’s flying around me just because I’m thinking of writing the horrible sinful word)  
 
Sexual relations without being married(jippy i wrote it), basically one is perfect if you haven’t committed the horrible one and only crime which is the only criterion to be regarded as a female human being.  
 
Note that there is no other quality needed for a free woman or slave woman, other than being “untouchable/chaste”  
 
***This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.  
 
Funny that “abstaining from evil” is synonymous with “abstaining from sex”  
 
And Allah is always "talking" to men and what they can do to women or who they can marry or how much to pay in mahr or how they can divorce them or how they can punish them etc. Why is Allah always talking to men and not women?  
 
Why are men chosen to "delegate" rights and wrongs but not women?  
 
Where are the instructions for the government and society as whole?
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/11/2011

 
63.2.185 also explain, asked you earlier but you not answer. if you use ortodhox tranlation you must explain it also  
 
2:185 The month of Ramadan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the Criterion…that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for having guided you and that you may give thanks.  
 
Quran sent down in the month of Ramadan?  
 
1. Sent down, from where ?  
 
2. why in Ramadan and not January?  
 
3. Is this calender designed in the Quran?  
 
4. do you need "the guidance and the Criterion "only in Ramadan? Why is the month of Ramadan highlighted ?  
 
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/11/2011

 
64.4:24 Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you.* These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.  
 
.:::::::::::.  
 
Who translation is this? other translations say  
 
۞ وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ۖ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاءَ ذَ‌ٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُوا بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ ۚ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً ۚ وَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا  
 
 
Transliteration 24: Waalmuhsanatu mina alnnisai illa ma malakat aymanukum kitaba Allahi AAalaykum waohilla lakum ma waraa thalikum an tabtaghoo biamwalikum muhsineena ghayra musafiheena fama istamtaAAtum bihi minhunna faatoohunna ojoorahunna fareedatan wala junaha AAalaykum feema taradaytum bihi min baAAdi alfareedati inna Allaha kana AAaleeman hakeeman  
 
 
Yusuf Ali 24: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.  
 
 
Shakir 24: And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.  
 
 
Pickthal 24: And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.  
 
 
Mohsin Khan: 24: Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.  
 
 
Your translation say  
 
4:24 Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you.*  
 
Arabi text say  
 
وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاء إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ  
 
why you addition ***unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you.*** ??? What word is disbelieving husband war with you?  
 
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/11/2011

 
65.Yellow Cow,  
 
Thank you for the questions.  
 
Instead of bombarding me with so many questions though, why don't we take just one question at a time.  
 
What is the first question you want me to look at?  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/11/2011

 
66.plis start from top, first question and work the last. first post is regarding your translation of 4.25, second is regarding 2.185 which you posted, and third is regarding 4.24.
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/11/2011

 
67.Good deal.  
 
Just one more thing, however, do you agree that nikah=marriage?  
 
We have to agree this term means married as opposed to not married, otherwise, the discussion has no point.
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/11/2011

 
68.If you not answer question regarding your posting and use of translation then there it is no point in discuss. no i not agree nikah mean marrige. it mean kontract. Just tell me if you want to will answer for your transaltions beecaose later more question will come on every aya translation you use. What i disagree or agree have nothing to do with how you explaination of use of traditional translation as used by you. question is for the transaltion you use and some words added in 4.24. this wont change no matter if i think nikah is divorce or marrige. (bhai the way, very best answer from Muunawar and Junaid, it is very clear and comprehensiwe, thank you all two of you.)Dhannewaad
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/11/2011

 
69.Yellow Cow,  
 
I will get to your other questions in due course, however, defining marriage is central to our discussion as to whether or not Al-Quran addresses the rightness or wrongness of sexual behavior.  
 
***no i not agree nikah mean marrige. it mean kontract.***  
 
All marriages are contracts, however, not all contracts are marriages. This is just common sense. If I buy my daughter a car, I must sign contracts, but I’m not getting married to my daughter’s car. Nikah is a SPECIFIC kind of contract, but it is not the Quranic term for contract in general. The Quranic term for contract in general is aqada. In ayat 2:235, you can see both terms side by side. The following definitions show the difference between these terms. While both terms mention –tie a knot; contract, only nikah mentions marry in the definition. That is because while is a marriage is contract, it is not the Quranic term for contract in general.  
 
NIKAH/NOON-KAF-HA: to tie; make a knot; contract; cement; marry. Dictionary of the Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, pg. 577  
 
AQADA/AIN-QAF-DAL: to tie a knot; strike a bargain; contract; make a compact; enter into an obligation. Dictionary of the Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, pg.381  
 
Sahih International: 2:235 There is no blame upon you for that to which you [indirectly] allude concerning a proposal to women or for what you conceal within yourselves. Allah knows that you will have them in mind. But do not promise them secretly except for saying a proper saying. And do not determine to undertake a MAARRIAGE CONTRACT until the decreed period reaches its end. And know that Allah knows what is within yourselves, so beware of Him. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing.  
 
If you cannot accept the clear difference between these two terms, what else could you possibly accept from me as an argument/evidence?  
 
I just happened upon this statement by Dr. Zaman:  
 
***Marriage is an agreement between two persons to live together ..is the declaration of the agreement of living together..***  
 
I don't get the sense that he's stating that the Quranic term for contract is nikah. What I'm sensing is that he's stating nikah, as an institution, is an aqada/contract, that is, marriage cannot be anything other than a contractual agreement. If this isn't the case, then 2:235 would read "contract contract" rather than marriage contract. The terms marriage/nikah and contract/aqada, are separate terms.  
 
It appears as if your buddy, Moazzam, agrees with me, unless he's changed his mind from Aug, 18 2010, that nikah means marriage:  
 
***The marriage contract/agreement (NIKAH) should be taken in a sense as other agreements/contracts being incorporated in a society, the terms & conditions are clearly and mutualy agreed upon must be written and witnessed.***  
 
Hmm...what is the Quranic term for..."other agreements/contracts"?  
 
Moazzam, even defines nikah/marriage as being between a "husband and a wife".  
 
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/11/2011

 
70.Nikah means contract, context define its use. What is context of 2-235? not contract contract, agreemen/tie/strong link/rope of contract. But when are you going to answer the relevant questions to your use of the ayats?I think this is just bull shit around, it is you use ayat but you not explaination them.Not fair and very boring.  
now you use SAHIH INTERNATHIONAL for 2.235, but not when 4.24 when war and husband story added? Shahi internathional even say TIE OF MARRIGE, if both words mean TO TIE KNOT, then it would be TIE TIE. Marrige is kontract so it is a BOUNDRY which is TIED between two group or indivicuals.  
If you notanswering regarding your use of ayat and adding of words, then byebye. Everyone can see you doesnt want  
discussing.I must work for my family not weast time without gaining knolledge.  
 
Dhulqarnain "If you cannot accept the clear difference between these two terms, what else could you possibly accept from me as an argument/evidence? "  
 
you want to convince me to agree with you base on traditional thranslations like you posted totally different from everyone else of 4:24? you want me to agree and akcept your view and explainasion base on 4.24 which you unable to make sense out of and dont answering? you want me to convince from month of ramadan 2.185 without calender give in Quran?  
 
Look this> 2.194 الشَّهْرُ الْحَرَامُ بِالشَّهْرِ الْحَرَامِ  
 
The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited, yusuf ali  
 
The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are (under the law of) retaliation; shakir  
 
The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. pickthal  
 
The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of Equality (Qisas).  
 
nov you explain month of ramadhan, what on earth is this , prohoitbit month of prohibit month? and no kalender ? We follow quran and without the kalender no month no knowing when Quran come, and you say i follow your translation? Quran come in month of ramadan when kalender not exist in Koran? and you want me to buy your addisional stories because they look fine to you? Im yellow cow but not blind sheep. Please answar the questions relasion to your use of ayat as posted upstairs, beginning from first .Dhannewaad
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/11/2011

 
71.Nov you say nikah is only marrige, i say its contract. we disagree. so when u have time starat with other questions tahnk you.
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/11/2011

 
72.Yellow Cow,  
 
***Nov you say nikah is only marrige, i say its contract. we disagree. so when u have time starat with other questions tahnk you.***  
 
On what basis are you maintaining that it means contract? Even Dr. Zaman and Moazzam disagree with you.  
 
Listen, if you and I cannot agree on simple concept like nikah, what is the point of discussing anything? My discussion on this thread has been around sexual behavior and is it addressed in Al-Quran. This discussion has not be resolved so why jump into others, which in all likelihood, will end up unresolved as well. It is apparent that if I say something is blue, you're simply going to say it's green.  
 
I'll indulge you this one time on Ramadan, but that is it. If you wil not relent on the concept of nikah then I cannot be bothered jumping to other topics so you can, out of hand, reject them as well.  
 
What you have to realize is this, not every ayat is intended for every time period. Allah says, though I'm certain you wil not agree, that His Quran/His Kalima/His Words, is fully detailed.  
 
41:2-3 A revelation from the Beneficent, the Merciful. A Book of which the ayats are fully detailed, an Arabic Quran for a people who know —  
 
Other than 2:185, Allah does not discuss what Ramadan. Whatever Ramadan is Allah has given little detail about it, other than, it was the month in which Al-Quran was revealed. If Ramadan was something that humanity needed to do on an going basis, then Allah would have provided the details for all to see and respond to.  
 
Another example is 33:53  
 
Sahih International: 33:53 O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that [behavior] was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of [dismissing] you. But Allah is not shy of the truth. And when you ask [his wives] for something, ask them from behind a partition. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not [conceivable or lawful] for you to harm the Messenger of Allah or to marry his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that would be in the sight of Allah an enormity.  
 
Can any of us enter the Last Prophet's house and talk to him? This is an ayat that is not intended for us today. It was specific to those at the time of the Last Prophet.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/11/2011

 
73.Okke , what you say is , you are not answering questions regarding the translation YOU USE and want US to akcept as correct, because I disagree on nikah AS marrige independent on context? * Are you telling me that you can keep posting ayat about ramadan month, last prophet and his physical house, 4 wives, and other ayats, but I cant ask you to explain these translations you use to convince us? * You use 4:24 where first line is totally different than any other tranlsation and you doesnt want to explain why words are added, and cant answer this because i disagree that Nikah means marrige? junaid asking you question regarding last prophet and you didnt answar him but post aya about last prophet again without answaring about it to Junaid? Look what Junaid asking you regarding LAST prophet  
 
If it is KHATAM (with a zabar ), then please tell me what is the difference between KHATAM and KHATIM  
OR  
Are these two the same and it makes no difference whether it's KHATAM or KHATIM?  
 
Why am I asking this?  
Because I have seen people using the word "Khaatimah" (with a zer) in their common language in order to represent "END" while in 33:40, I noticed that it is "Khatam" (with a zabar) which sounds a but different. (Not sure why) "  
 
nov you want us to close our eyes and blindly follow your translations when you who use it dont yourself even know why 33.40 use khatam with zabar? You say Allah give little knowledge about ramadan, but it say in 16.89 itstabyanan li kulle shaying? you use 2.185 to explain it is about a month, but dont want to explain how it can mean month when reference to .2.194? You think you are very smart and can add words to 4.24 and it is not noticed by anybody?Most people on blog change views with time, many people had differant views in beginning and changin with time. because they came here to learn and honest want to know what Quran say. You are not here to learn, you want to teach. teach through ortodhox translation which cant be defended and dont make sense, teach through your added words and meanings to quran, teach through baseless arguments just to win, teach through hadith based translations. Most peepol here have study and learn Quran and also know arabic fluently, they have reading all orthodox translations and tafseers, but want to learn original mesage of Quran. Read on top of this side and you can see it say RESEARCH and understanding the QURAN, not translations based on hadith. You come with same old lies from traditional translations and try to act smart with posting many many ayats without able to explain your first posted ayas? If we want a teacher to learn us quran through ortodhox translations, we would admission in madrassa, mosque or mulla school. you are right, your teaching is not fit here, you base your learning from orthox's understanding, we study the Quran in itselve and on its own grammar syntaks and language structure. We look for sense and guidance in Allahs book, your teeem look for sex talk, sextual instsrtuktion in Allahs book  
 
YES YOU ARE RIGHT, THIS IS WASTE OF TIME AND NO POINT OF DISCUSSION WITH YOU. BYEBYE.
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/12/2011

 
74.Yellow Cow,  
 
Now you’re off discussing another word Khatam.  
 
***Okke , what you say is , you are not answering questions regarding the translation YOU USE and want US to akcept as correct, because I disagree on nikah AS marrige independent on context? Nikah means contract, context define its use. What is context of 2-235? not contract contract, agreemen/tie/strong link/rope of contract.***  
 
I’m trying desperately to stay on one topic at a time, but you, continuously, want to jump around. You claim now that nikah is, “independent on context”. I assume you mean—dependent on context. This is fine claim to make, I have no problem with this. Now, all you have to do is provide the ayat where the context is factually stating that nikah is a contract unrelated to marriage, that is, a contract between husband and wife. Why is this an unreasonable request?  
 
Context, context, context…isn’t this the very mantra that the “traditionalist” use against us, The Quranioon, when they don’t want to admit to their lack of understanding? Isn’t that what they claim about salaa, that the context will define if it means prayer, blessing (2:157 and 33:56), or synagogue (22:40)? A word cannot be used in one context in Al-Quran and then in another context in Al-Quran, because that would constitute a discrepancy and, as you know, per ayat 4:82, there are no discrepancies in Al-Quran. Now, I’m throwing the term context out, don’t get me wrong, but what is the context as to how nikah is being used throughout Al-Quran, that is, is used to mean anything other than marriage? If so, where? Let me benefit from your vast research and fluency in Arabic and give me this answer.  
 
If you’re so about research, and I believe you and the others here mean that, then present your research on nikah being the Quranic term for—contract and not aqada. Why are you correct and Moazzam is not? Listen, either he’s right and you are wrong, or he’s right and you are wrong, or you’re both wrong…but you both cannot be right. So, what is the correct Quranic fact of nikah? Is just a contract in general or is it a specific type of contract?  
 
***You are not here to learn, you want to teach. teach through ortodhox translation which cant be defended and dont make sense, teach through your added words and meanings to quran, teach through baseless arguments just to win, teach through hadith based translations. Most peepol here have study and learn Quran and also know arabic fluently, they have reading all orthodox translations and tafseers, but want to learn original mesage of Quran. Read on top of this side and you can see it say RESEARCH and understanding the QURAN, not translations based on hadith. You come with same old lies from traditional translations and try to act smart with posting many many ayats without able to explain your first posted ayas? If we want a teacher to learn us quran through ortodhox translations, we would admission in madrassa, mosque or mulla school. you are right, your teaching is not fit here, you base your learning from orthox's understanding, we study the Quran in itselve and on its own grammar syntaks and language structure. We look for sense and guidance in Allahs book, your teeem look for sex talk, sextual instsrtuktion in Allahs book.***  
 
Your above diatribe is nothing but false accusations. You say above that you look for “sense and guidance”. Could you please tell me what the Quranic term is for “SENSE”, because Allah, in ayat 17:36, commands that we acquire “ILM” not “sense/zanna”.  
 
Isn’t it interesting that, independent of Aastana Blog, I was able to arrive at that fact that salaa, ruku, sajadah have nothing to do with physicality. Isn’t it interesting that, independent of Aastana Blog, I was able to arrive at the fact that there are no rituals in Deen Al-Islam? Gee, how did I do that---6 years ago?  
 
Being fluent in Arabic is no critical factor when it comes to getting guidance and understanding from Al-Quran. My, God, many of the Arabs, who, by the way, speak fluent Arabic, still don’t understand Al-Quran. Again. Allah has made it plain that the Message must come in the language of the people. I’m not fluent in Arabic by any stretch of the imagination, but still I know what salaa is and what it is not. And that is a big big deal, yeah?  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/12/2011

 
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