TOPIC: Islam >> Beliefs
Q.  
DR. QAMAR ZAMAN WROTE: "SO ACTUALLY THERE IS NOTHING TO BE CALLED PREMARITAL SEX".  
 
IS THIS ASSERTION, ACCORDING TO AL-QURAN, TRUE?!?
By: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/16/2011

1.Mr.Dhulqarnain! Please come out of SEX. You may put your extremely valuable time n efforts at some other Muslim ummah's issues. THANKS
Comments by: naeem sheikh On: 7/17/2011

 
2.It's not about sex, it's about being accurate when saying anything about Allah and Deen Al-Islam. The question as to whether Allah has addressed sexual behavioror or has not addressed sexual behavior in Al-Quran must be resolved. As Quran alone people we must defend our claims.  
 
So, do you support Dr.Zaman's assertion or no?  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/17/2011

 
3.Its said befor, noone can push his views on others, this is diskussed many times so you must read throug it. IF you disagree it fine, but we dont want to vaste time on same subject over over again search for zina and you will see our posision on that.
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/18/2011

 
4.Peace to All,  
 
I have been going through the posts on this topic. The following is my rebuttal. If no one chooses to respond that is fine. At least an opposing view will be posted for one and all to consider, unless, that is, my post should be taken down.  
Y  
ellow Cow, not worry, I will get to the questions you asked a while back.  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?SID=6&QID=71  
 
***QAMAR ZAMAN: Now to answer about Premarital sex one has to be clear about marriage, Premarital and extramarital sex. Extramarital sex is absolutely not acceptable in any society. What is a marriage ? It as a contract between a male & female to lead a family life. Whenever a couple lives together, they live under a contract, wether written or unwritten. So actually there is nothing to be called premarital sex. Any couple who starts a life without going into the ceremonies of marriage of the society may be against the society's customs but different societies have different customs.***  
 
2:235 …And do not determine to undertake a marriage contract/aqada until the decreed period reaches its end …  
 
2:237…unless they forego the right or the one in whose hand is the marriage contract/aqada foregoes it.  
 
Dr. Zaman, if I’m reading his words correctly, isn’t stating that nikah is the Quranic term for a contract/aqada in general, rather, he is stating that nikah is a particular type of contract/aqada. The above ayats certainly distinguish between the two terms. Dr. Zaman cites, and correctly so, that extramarital behavior is wrong. The question now is…does Allah, likewise, consider extramarital sex wrong? And, of course, the answer is yes. The following ayats show this to be true :  
 
23:1-7 Successful indeed are the believers, …And who guard their chastity—*Except with their spouses or those whom their right hands possess, for such surely are not blameable,* But whoever seeks to go beyond that, such are transgressors —  
 
Dr. Zaman is incorrect, however, when he claims--” So actually there is nothing to be called premarital sex”. Marriage exists as an institution, at least it does in Deen Al-Islam anyway, and is a contract/aqada between a male and at least one female (up to four) allowing for the lawful relinquishing of chasity. Sexual relations before entering into the marriage contract/institution then, can only be defined as---pre-marriage contract sex or simply premarital sex. According to the same ayats immediately above, premarital sex is unlawful:.  
 
23:1-7 Successful indeed are the believers, …And who guard their chastity—*Except in the presence of their spouses or those whom their right hands possess, for such surely are not blameable,* But whoever seeks to go beyond that, such are transgressors —  
 
In conclusion:  
 
1. Al-Quran does address sexual behavior.  
 
2. Nikah is not the term for contract in general, but is a type of contract/aqada.  
 
3. Allah requires a contract for marriage.  
 
4. Both extra marital and premarital sex are unlawful.  
 
Looking forward to your replies.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/18/2011

 
5.Dear Dhulqarnan regarding  
23:5  
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ  
 
And the people who are Hafizoon for their furooj(فُرُوجِ)  
Please tell me if I am wrong above
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/18/2011

 
6.Peace, Waseemameer,  
 
I don't understand your question/statement. Could you please rephrase, thanks.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/18/2011

 
7.Ok i'll write in Urdu  
if  
furooj= شرم گاہ  
than meaning of 23/4 will be  
جو اپنی شرم گاہوں کے لیے حافظ ھیں
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/18/2011

 
8.I have no idea what you're getting at. Why don't you present your question or what it is you disgree with in english .  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/18/2011

 
9.(23:1-7 Successful indeed are the believers, …And who guard their chastity)-----Dhulqarnain  
 
It should be  
Successful indeed are the believers,..And who guard for their chastity  
 
You are trying to drag this ayat uncesserarily in the sexual behaviour. Even context of the verse doesn't give the meaning you gave  
please justify your translation
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/18/2011

 
10.***You are trying to drag this ayat uncesserarily in the sexual behaviour. Even context of the verse doesn't give the meaning you gave , please justify your translation.  
 
Please don’t divorce 23:5 from 23:6, this gives you the full context.  
 
23:5- 6And who restrain their sexual passions—*Except in the presence of their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for such surely are not blameable,  
 
I justify my position based on the following definitions/translations:  
 
(23:5) lifurūjihim: of their modesty  
N – genitive masculine plural noun  
PRON – 3rd person masculine plural possessive pronoun  
جار ومجرور و«هم» ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة  
 
(23:5) ḥāfiẓūna: (are) guardians  
N – nominative masculine plural active participle  
اسم مرفوع  
 
FARAJA/FA-RA-JEEM: to open, to separate, cleave, split, let space between, space between legs; pudenda; womb; open place; chastity. Dictionary of the Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, pg.420  
 
HAFIZA/HA-FA-ZAIN: to guard, protect, take care, put in store, preserve, learn by heart. Dictionary of the Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, pg.129  
 
CHASTE: refraining from sexual intercourse that is regarded as contrary to morality or religion; virtuous.  
According to the above definitions, the hafiza protect their chasity/faraja, except with their spouses. The ayats, unless you present an argument proving otherwise, definitely speak to a ruling on sexual behavior/  
 
Looking forward to your reply.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
I am very interested to read your alternative understanding of ayats 23:5-6.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/18/2011

 
11.Dear Dhulqurnain regarding ayat  
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ ﴿٥﴾ إِلَّا عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ ﴿٦  
 
لِ in لِفُرُوجِهِمْ means for= کے لیے  
starting from the begining  
قَدْ أَفْلَحَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ ﴿١﴾ الَّذِينَ هُمْ فِي صَلَاتِهِمْ خَاشِعُونَ ﴿٢﴾ وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَنِ اللَّغْوِ مُعْرِضُونَ ﴿٣﴾ وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِلزَّكَاةِ فَاعِلُونَ ﴿٤﴾  
 
It is for those people who establishes the system of zakat-0-slaat and do their best to maintain it/protect it  
And these are the limits which is been mentioned in ayat 4 that they are protectors for their limits(Surely they are protecting it from external forces). For their own people following same ideology and the people who are under their malak(responsbility) are excempted. As they are part of the system. but it is expected that someone maycome up from them and try to distract the system .  
For this ayat  
فَمَنِ ابْتَغَىٰ وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَـٰئِكَ هُمُ الْعَادُونَ
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/18/2011

 
12.Dear members, I didnt want to discuss this topic because its stretched out enough.  
 
I find this not only degrading to women, but humiliating to the mankind.  
 
We are talking about a divine message, which is sent down by an angel to talk about people’s private parts and how they should be covered?  
 
Even pigs and dogs are better than us, they are so pure they don’t even need a marriage  
 
If there is war in a country and the entire “first generation” died, then that society is left with women children, ,,,, I have to say, so bloody damn nice that men have been appointed to take care of the private parts of their mothers, grandmothers, sisters and aunts whatsoever , with the permission of God.  
 
How stupid is it possible to be?  
 
23.1-7 is talking about how to win through, and referring to Salaat, charity, vain talk and then sex?  
 
What the hell does this subject have to do with anything?  
 
Ask why the believer’s private parts are brought in in the same line of Salaat charity and vain talk ?? :-S  
 
This is so stupid that it is an insult to even mention it. This is degrading to humanity and specially women, because Men are allowed to have 4 wives according to this ridicules translations, then they are allowed to have captives which is “what the right hand possess” , then they can marry women from ahl Kitab which again is a swab, because she will convert.  
 
Now the perverts may tell me, what the hell is it to protect, what private part is left to protect when you can sleep with 4 wives and your captives?  
 
I was born and raised in the west, and I have all kind of friends with all kind of sexual directions, but even I , yes it is true, even I get ashamed when I read these stupid ridicules translations which is nothing but a pervert reminder of the private parts of our mothers ,sisters and co .  
 
If we don’t have our “father” around, and our mother couldn’t protect her private parts, then what kind of a shameless son would punish her with 100 lashes for what she did with her private parts?  
 
UGH  
 
The Quran is not talking about sexual behavior or sexual bloody activities, it is a book of values so people who read it, are enabled to KNOW what to do and HOW to behave.  
 
That's why We left this discussion because we won’t go anywhere as long as one in not capable to look at the Quran from its own angle, but look at with his/her own eyes as a book of sexual behavior, science, biology, myths and illogical fantasies about protecting the private parts. It degrade the human intellect and woman’s intellect, like if a woman who is ordered to only have 1 husband, no right hand possessions, must be restricted and punished in front of her family and a group of people, with hundred lashes if she loose it . If men are appointed to guard the private parts in the society, what work is given to women other than listening to these bull shitters?  
 
Excuse my FRENCHEnglish but this is making me angry because it’s an attempt to justify sneaky rules which point out the superiority of pervert men.  
 
Those who don’t use their senses do not deserve the luxury and divine gift called KNOWLEDGE. In other words, there is no such thing as “living an animalistic life”, YOURE EITHER A HUMAN BEING OR WORSE THAN ANIMALS !!!!!  
 
WE DONT NEED A DIVINE MESSAGE TELLING US HOW TO COVER OUR PRIVATE PARTS, WE NEED A DIVINE MESSAGE TO TELL US HOW TO PROTECT OUR INTELLECT FROM JAHILAT/IGNORANCE  
 
SO WAKE UP
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/19/2011

 
13.Thanks a lot Dear brother Waseem,
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/19/2011

 
14.Dear Sister Narigs  
I think the topic Dhulqarnain discussing is very important in the eyes of those who are the beginners of understanding of Al kitab. But rather than discussing this topic in light of present situation/ high intellect stuff, I thought the best process is to see the Quranic ayats according to there merits.  
 
I wonder why the sexual behaviour questions are so important. Someone kept asking me same question as well and I always reply " Quran expect it reader to be mature enough to solve the basic human values/issue on it's own, and seek the guidance from Al-kitab for humanity"
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/19/2011

 
15.Dear Dhulqarnain,  
You tried to prove that sex outside marriage is Zina and then you are are stating in your translation of 23:1-7 *And  
who guard their chastity— Except with their spouses or those whom their right hands possess, for such surely are not blameable*. So, according to your definition of Zina who don't guard their chastity "with whom their right hands posses" are not committing Zina?
Comments by: Waqar On: 7/19/2011

 
16.Any beginner at any stage or field must begin somewhere, it means the beginners must ALWAYS read through and study the presented arguments. but when these arguments are overlooked, then it is not about the beginners query for knowledge, it is to teach us that she/he is right.  
 
this is overlooked  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1467#COM7592  
 
this is overlooked  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1467#COM7582  
 
this is overlooked  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1363#COM7549  
 
this is overlooked  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1363#COM7551  
 
this is overlooked  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1363#COM7550  
 
this is overlooked  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1363#COM7513  
 
this is overlooked  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1363#COM7471  
 
and one of the most important answers, which is explaining ALNISA clearly through the Quran, is completely overlooked  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=1363#COM7466  
 
why are these answers overlooked if one wants to know the truth?  
 
If the topic is that important, than the truth must be even more important,beginners or not !!!!!
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/19/2011

 
17.Yes, and what on earth is protecting their private parts is not needed from what your "right hand possess" ?  
 
I'm looking at this from a women's angle, and its very degrading and provoking, none of you will understand that unless you look at it from my angle.
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/19/2011

 
18.Salaam;  
Sister Nargis, I can see you are getting angry now :)  
All I can say is, that this discussion is distracting you from your main goal which is to teach those who are eager to learn and who are willing to ponder and reflect.  
You see, this is the reason why I requested you and others to avoid discussing this topic, since it has already been discussed in detail on various other threads. Please see my last post on the following discussion thread, where I have provided the complete details regarding the real topics being discussed in Quran;  
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?SID=40&QID=1468  
 
Also to mention that the sick minded people, the victims of self illusion, who are deeply involved in personality cult and who cannot think beyond sex, will always talk about gender discrimination and drag you away from the real issues. The more you'll prolong this discussion, more you'll hear about gender discrimination because these people will always use it to defend their ego and their idol worship. In fact those who think Quran is talking about sex and gender discrimination are actually committing FAHASH and ZINA by distorting the message as well as the ideology but they won't be able to realize that.  
 
Remember: Sex and violence is being used as a weapon of "Mind control" by elites who are controlling the minds of masses, whether through Vatican or Roman catholic churches in pre-Quranic Era, whether through Persian, Jewish and Zoroastrian so called "Scholars" during Umayyad and Abbasid Era or whether through media in the modern era of industrial and scientific development.  
Sex as a topic always open up the aspects of gender discrimination. It always ends up converting women into things or commodities and it distracts people from real issues. This topic has been the favorite topic in the past, the favorite topic at present and will remain the favorite topic in future, BUT ONLY FOR SICK MINDED PEOPLE. The only way you can concentrate on your work is, by avoiding these needlessly prolonged discussions on a meaningless topic which has got nothing to do with Quran.  
 
Note: I would advise all new members to go through the following articles, so that they could get familiar with the real concepts of ZINA and FOHASH;  
 
http://www.aastana.com/urdu/viewer.asp?id=52  
 
http://www.aastana.com/urdu/viewer.asp?t=A&id=50  
 
I hope these articles will provide all the necessary answers in detail.
 
Comments by: Junaid On: 7/19/2011

 
19.Sorry everyone :/ :(, but its hard not to react.-I was reading about ancient "sex goddesses" and then these translations and "right hand posess" and argghhh...i guess i need to do SOUM before i do HAJJ haha
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/19/2011

 
20.PEACE NARGIS AND ALL,  
 
***NARGIS: The Quran is not talking about sexual behavior or sexual bloody activities, it is a book of values so people who read it, are enabled to KNOW what to do and HOW to behave. ***  
 
You claim, and rightly so, that Al-Quran is a book of values. Good deal. Following are two definitions for “values”. I think you will agree with them both:  
 
VALUES: Can be defined as broad preferences concerning appropriate courses of action or outcomes. As such, values reflect a person’s sense of right and wrong or what “ought” to be. Values tend to influence attitudes and behavior. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_(personal_and_cultural)  
 
VALUES: Important and enduring beliefs or ideals shared by the members of a culture about what is good or desirable and what is not. Values exert major influence on the behavior of an individual and serve as broad guidelines in ALL situations. http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/values.html  
 
The three things common in both of these definitions are:  
 
1. Values are beliefs/preferences  
2. Values speak to right and wrong/what is desirable or not desirable.  
3. Values influence attitudes and behavior.  
 
We’ve all agreed here that sexual expression is a behavior. As a behavior then, and, as powerful as the sex drive (second to self-preservation) is, you want to claim that Allah, in His Quran, gave mankind NO values or guidelines as to the rightness and wrongness as to how this powerful drive/behavior is to be expressed/managed?  
Take a look at the following articles and then tell me with a straight face if Allah didn’t give His guidance on sexual expression/behavior, so as to warn mankind of the inherent dangers of its misuse.  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_industry  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking  
 
http://www.redthreadmovement.org/about.html  
 
“According to INTERPOL, after drug dealing, human trafficking is tied with arms dealing as the second largest criminal industry in the world, and is the FASTES GROWING. The average age of entry into prostitution is 12 – 14 (U.S. Department of Justice – Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section). The Federal Government estimates that up to 17,500 slaves are trafficked into the United States a year. Women in general do not go into the sex industry “willingly.” They are either forced (through sex trafficking or economics) or they were sexually abused as children. The Council on Prostitution Alternatives in Portland, Oregon, reported that 85% of the women interviewed for their Victim Survivor Survey were victims of INCEST AS GIRLS and 90% had been physically abused. Researchers agree that, “early, traumatic sexual objectification may be one factor influencing some women toward entrance into prostitution.” There is a disconnect that occurs in the brain when a child is sexually abused that often times causes them to be more sexually active”. http://unsilencedpictures.com/sextrade/?page_id=11  
 
This isn’t about women…it’s about women and men and boys and girls. This isn’t about “private parts”..it’s about proper values and conduct regarding sexual expression/behavior.  
 
***NARGIS: WE DONT NEED A DIVINE MESSAGE TELLING US HOW TO COVER OUR PRIVATE PARTS, WE NEED A DIVINE MESSAGE TO TELL US HOW TO PROTECT OUR INTELLECT FROM JAHILAT/IGNORANCE ***  
 
The above articles are discussing what is reported, can you imagine what is not reported? On the contrary Narge, people are in very much need of a divine message to tell them how to behave themselves sexually…the above articles certainly make that point, yeah? Anyway, for sure, Allah has addressed this issue in His Divine Message/Al-Quran---23:1-7 and other places as well.  
 
I wish you and the others would stop using the phrase “private parts” and instead use sexual behavior or sexual expression. Repeatedly saying “private parts” vulgarizes and trivializes the true context of what Allah is stating in His Quran.  
 
NARGIS: 23.1-7 is talking about how to win through, and referring to Salaat, charity, vain talk and then sex?  
 
Let me ask you a question, those who participate in the ugliness and profound misery of the sex trade i.e. prostitution (unforced), pornography, pimps, sex tourists, financial investors in the sex trade, child molesters etc., do you by any stretch of the imagination believe that they will be successful in this world, but especially in the world to come? This is why Allah mentions guarding one’s chastity along with salaa, zakaa, and vain talk (purification not charity), because if one doesn’t do salaa and zakaa and indulges in vain talk how can that individual be successful? By not doing salaa and zakaa, by not avoiding vain talk, by not practicing being chaste the potential for all sorts of difficulties/crises/emegencies, are likely to be realized..the worst of which is being denied Paradise.  
 
The following ayats illustrate a young man, Yusef, who guarded his chastity.  
 
12:22-29 And when he attained his maturity, We gave him wisdom and knowledge. And thus do We reward the doers of good. *And she in whose house he was, sought to seduce him, and made fast the doors and said: Come. He said: Allah forbid! Surely my Lord made good my abode. The wrongdoers never prosper. *And certainly she desired him, and he would have desired her, were it not that he had seen the manifest evidence of his Lord. Thus (it was) that We might turn away from him EVIL/SAHA and INDECENCY/FASHAH. Surely he was one of Our chosen servants. *And they raced with one another to the door, and she rent his shirt from behind, and they met her husband at the door. She said: What is the punishment for one who intends evil to thy wife, except imprisonment or a painful chastisement? *He said: She sought to seduce me. And a witness of her own family bore witness: If his shirt is rent in front, she speaks the truth and he is of the liars. *And if his shirt is rent behind, she tells a lie and he is of the truthful. *So when he saw his shirt rent behind, he said: Surely it is a device of you women. Your device is indeed great! *O Joseph, turn aside from this. And (O my wife), ask forgiveness for thy sin. Surely thou art one of the sinful.  
 
This story shows the power of the remembrance of Allah and salaa. Ayat 12:24 states that he turned from indecency/FASHAH and evil/SAHA (spelling). Why did he turn from fashah and saha? He turned because he remember Allah, thus, he kept up his salaa.  
 
29:45 Recite that which has been revealed to thee of the Book and keep up prayer. Surely salaa keeps (one) away from indecency/FASHAH and evil/munkar; and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greater thing. And Allah knows what you do.  
 
Ayat 12:24, conceptually, was the borhan from his Lord.  
 
Btw, did you know that ayat 17:32 uses the same terms…fashah and saha as in 12:24?  
 
17:32 And don’t go near ZANA/unlawful sex; surely it is an indecency/fashah and an evil/saha way.  
 
Yusef, in ayat 12:24, restrained himself from engaging in unlawful sex/zana, because it was fahshah and saha.  
Now, are you going to claim that Yusef ran so that he would not distort Islamic ideology or that the Aziz’s woman would try to impose distorted Islamic ideology on him?  
 
Here’s another thing. You will also notice that Ayat 12:23 states that the wrong doers will not be SUCCESSFUL/FLAHA. Flaha-to succeed,/propser, is the same term used in 23:1  
 
23:1 SUCCESSFUL/FLAHAindeed are the believers… 23.5 And who guard their chastity.  
 
If Yusef had relinquished his chastity and given into the Aziz's woman, he would not have been successful. The same applies to all of us.  
 
How much more evidence do you require before you admit that Allah has addressed sexual matters/behavior in His Quran? At what point do you simply say to yourself…”hmmm…maybe on this issue, and given the evidence, I might need to reconsider position”. Only pride will keep you people from taking another look at this topic. Have you even considered for a moment that you may be wrong despite your research?  
 
Regardless of what some may think, the issue of sexual behavior is an extremely serious matter.  
 
Looking forward to your replies.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/20/2011

 
21.Mr. Dhulqarnain:-  
 
Dhulqarnain: “According to INTERPOL, after drug dealing, human trafficking is tied with arms dealing as the second largest criminal industry in the world, and is the FASTES GROWING.  
 
Where are the punishments for drug dealing and arms dealing given in quran, when they are such dangerous crimes?  
You yourself admitted that these crimes are growing fast, then why your mind is stuck at SEX ONLY?????  
 
Don't you feel ashamed that you are degrading women?  
Whats the difference between you and the racist american society where police killed a black guy whom they call NIGER only for a 2 dollar ticket?  
See this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfBSSCIy-mY
Comments by: Perwez1 On: 7/20/2011

 
22. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI64yvho5Lw&NR=1  
 
Even the monkey is beneficial to humanity, and humans need divine instructions for "sexual behaviour"? :-S  
 
(The orthodox translation is not "evidence" for anything other than the disabilities of the translator, its like quoting the bible to convince others that Mariam was a virgin mother. But heyy, its a free world)
Comments by: Nargis2 On: 7/20/2011

 
23.Dear Dhulqurnain,  
This discussion will go nowhere. You need to justify your translation first and also you need to answer brother Waqar question as well.  
I assume that you must have spent at least half an hour writing and searching from wikipedia. If you'd spent that time searching the true meaning of Surah Yousuf and put it on the forum would have been more productive  
Again I will say, you cannot convince people with wikipedia/google links. You need to prove your stance from Quran and giving the correct meanings for Quranic ayats keeping in view lexicons,grammar and context.
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/20/2011

 
24.Peace,  
 
***WASEEMAMEER: Again I will say, you cannot convince people with wikipedia/google links. You need to prove your stance from Quran and giving the correct meanings for Quranic ayats keeping in view lexicons,grammar and context.***  
 
I’ve proved my case thoroughly via Al-Quran and the dictionary. You reject my evidence, no problem.  
 
***NARGIS: Even the monkey is beneficial to humanity, and humans need divine instructions for "sexual behaviour"? :-S***  
 
Yes, on both accounts.  
 
It is clear that we are diametrically opposed on the issue of sexual behavior being addressed in Al-Quran. I’ve presented my evidence on this matter and I can present more, but it is obvious that you will simply continue to by-pass it or reject it out of hand, with the “justification” that I’m following “orthodox translations”. For you people here every ayat (6600 or so ayats) has been wrongly translated and only aastana blog has the correct translation. Anyway, I see no point in continuing this particular subject.  
 
To you be your way and to me be my way.  
 
Allah, soon enough, will decide the matter between us.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/21/2011

 
25.Dear Dhulqurnain,  
and I hope you take out yourself from these issues and concentrate on the true message/objective of Quran.  
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/21/2011

 
26."For you people here every ayat (6600 or so ayats) has been wrongly translated and only aastana blog has the correct translation. Anyway, I see no point in continuing this particular subject. "  
 
TRUE and thank you for see the truth for once.  
 
You NEVER answered questians and ran away from defending your translations. Then you discriminate between men and women without giving it a second thought. you NEVER answaring early questions and never explained your use of ayats. Thank you for understanding that we are not stupid to be mislead by your teqhnike of what you calling evidences. Allah have decided the matter between us two, you are stagnation, we in progression. Dhannewad
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/21/2011

 
27.Mr. Dhulqarnain :-  
 
You didn't answer my question! You look like a real hypocrite!!!  
 
I am repeating my question:-  
 
Dhulqarnain: “According to INTERPOL, after drug dealing, human trafficking is tied with arms dealing as the second largest criminal industry in the world, and is the FASTES GROWING.  
 
Where are the punishments for drug dealing and arms dealing given in quran, when they are such dangerous crimes?  
You yourself admitted that these crimes are growing fast, then why your mind is stuck at SEX ONLY?????
Comments by: Perwez1 On: 7/21/2011

 
28.Pervez, Yellow Cow, Waseemameer,  
 
I'v answered your questions based on the ayats and and sound dictionary definitions both Arabic and English. You people simply reject my explanations summing them up to being---"orthodox translations". You reject every translation, except of course, the ones which go along with your agenda. It is clear to me now that no matter what I post you will simply complain that either I did not answer the question or the translation is wrong because it's "orthodox". There's no such thing as nikah being marriage, you reject polygamy, you refer to Deen Al-Islam as Islamic "Ideology", Allah has addressed every topic except sexual conduct and on and on. In my opinion, you people are simply gutting the Quran. You people have declared yourselves to be MASTERS OF THE QURAN. Who can argue against those who have mastered the Book? Perhaps we will agree on a different topic, but this one regarding sexual behavior we never will. So there is no point for me to continue this discussion.  
 
As I said, Allah will decide this matter soon enough.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/21/2011

 
29.Dear Dhulqurnain  
(Yusef, in ayat 12:24, restrained himself from engaging in unlawful sex/zana, because it was fahshah and saha.  
Now, are you going to claim that Yusef ran so that he would not distort Islamic ideology or that the Aziz’s woman would try to impose distorted Islamic ideology on him? ) -----Dhulqurnain  
 
Can you answer Dr. Sahab's question in the following post regarding story of Hazrat yousuf  
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=771  
My dear brother, the orthodox translation is not a ' Qasas' from any perspective. It is only a story for kids. I reject your translation on the above basis.
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/21/2011

 
30.About Prophet Yusuf, by dr Uncle, im posting the questions.  
 
1 The Verse 3 of Sura 12 is saying that Prophet Mohammad did not know about the story of Yusuf , although the story narrated by our Mufassireen is in Bible. And undoubtedly he knew the Bible very well otherwise he could not have commented on Bible. So how come he did not know the story of Yusuf . Because the story narrated in Bible and copied by the mufassireen is not correct. It is totally a different story . So we have to throw away the Biblical narrations from Quran.  
 
2 Was Yusuf known for his interpretations of dreams. NO. Even his so called brothers could interpret the dream of Yusuf hence he was stopped from telling his brothers.  
 
3 Nobody can become an enemy on seeing a dream. If there was a possibility of his brothers becoming his enemy, it must have been something else than a dream.  
 
4 Why his brothers are called Satans in 12 / 5.  
 
5 Even the Malik had a true dream and even those who were in prison with him.  
 
6 How his father knew that Yusuf will be eaten by a wolf.  
 
7 Doors were closed one after another and he was just looking at the her, he did not try to run away. WHY ?  
 
8 Although all the doors were closed but there was a witness, where from did he come to witness.  
 
9 When she called him he did not answer in accordance to invitation i.e. sexually but he answered mentioning the رب  
وَرَاوَدَتْهُ الَّتِي هُوَ فِي بَيْتِهَا عَنْ نَفْسِهِ وَغَلَّقَتِ الأبْوَابَ وَقَالَتْ هَيْتَ لَكَ قَالَ مَعَاذَ اللَّهِ إِنَّهُ رَبِّي أَحْسَنَ مَثْوَايَ إِنَّهُ لا يُفْلِحُ الظَّالِمُونَ  
 
10After all that, the husband did not separated his wife and Yusuf. Both were living in the same house.  
 
11 When he was called again in front of ladies he obeyed the order like a lamb.  
 
12 Why the ladies were so astonished at his looks. Did he never go out of the house.  
 
13 What about the husband, he has disappeared from the scene.  
 
14 Verse 12-31 says hands were cut not the fingers, فَلَمَّا رَأَيْنَهُ أَكْبَرْنَهُ وَقَطَّعْنَ أَيْدِيَهُنَّ No body can cut hands by themselves. Its only fingers which are cut by mistake.  
 
15 If Yusuf was stopped from doing evil because of some indications from God, So what was the excellence of Yusuf.  
 
16 Why all the ladies in general of the world are blamed إِنَّ كَيْدَكُنَّ عَظِيم  
 
17 Yusuf was not thrown out of his community, on the contrary, he left on his own with a view إِنِّي تَرَكْتُ مِلَّةَ قَوْمٍ لا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَهُمْ بِالآخِرَةِ هُمْ كَافِرُونَ  
 
18 The answer to the question asked by the prisoner has no relevance to question. The prisoners wanted interpretation of their dreams whereas he is giving lecture about his own ideology. WHY ?, there must be some reason.  
 
19 The mention of multiple Gods is totally out of context. يَا صَاحِبَيِ السِّجْنِ أَأَرْبَابٌ مُتَفَرِّقُونَ خَيْرٌ أَمِ اللَّهُ الْوَاحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ  
 
20 مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِنْ دُونِهِ إِلا أَسْمَاءً سَمَّيْتُمُوهَا أَنْتُمْ وَآبَاؤُكُمْ is not the expected answer by any  
standard or expectation.  
 
21 While his brother was in his house, He himself made arrangements to put CUP ( السقاٰ ٰیہ ) in his brothers luggage.WHY ? when instead of السقایہ they found صواع Yousuf did not interfere to say that I arranged all this although السقایہ was kept but they found out صواع الملک WHY ? Even if we take both the things as the same WAS THERE ONLY ONE CUP IN WHOLE OF THE KINGDOM, so that when king wanted to drink water ( السقایہ means a cup for drinking) he was given water in that cup while something was needed to measure the same cup was used as (الصواع (الصواع is a cup used for measuring weight or quantity.  
 
22 Why Yusuf is also blamed for theft in verse 77 by his brothers although he did not steal anything قَالُوا إِنْ يَسْرِقْ فَقَدْ سَرَقَ أَخٌ لَهُ مِنْ قَبْلُ  
 
THERE ARE SO MANY DISCREPENCIES IN THE ORTHODOX INTERPRETATIONS OF THIS SURA. THESE ARE ONLY AS FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/21/2011

 
31.Waseemameer,  
 
***Can you answer Dr. Sahab's question in the following post regarding story of Hazrat yousuf http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=771***  
 
What question, exactly, are you referring to? Copy and paste it in your reply.  
 
***My dear brother, the orthodox translation is not a ' Qasas' from any perspective. It is only a story for kids. I reject your translation on the above basis.***  
 
You make my point. Anything I say which you don’t agree with you will simply reply—“ I reject your translation”, hence,—end of the conversation!  
 
You, as with the others here, have mastered the Quran. Who can bring anything to you, now?  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/21/2011

 
32.Nargis,  
 
While I've always agreed that the current translations need some "tweaking" (if I didn't accept that I would still be doing rituals), the questions which you have raised still has not invalidated the "orthodox translation", in toto.  
 
Unfortunately, what you and the other member are doing all to often is...missing the forest for the trees.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/21/2011

 
33.(I did not post the orthodox translation "in toto", this is just an example.If you pay attention to earlier debates, you will see why you have ignored my post about Alnisa 11:49 and questions about 4:24.25. Its impossible that you haven't seen them, I know very well you have smoothly ignored them. So someone is missing the forest AND the trees. )
Comments by: Nargis2 On: 7/21/2011

 
34.Dear Dhulqurnain  
 
Have you concentrated on following ayats. I am putting the orthodox translation  
وَقَالَ الَّذِي اشْتَرَاهُ مِن مِّصْرَ لِامْرَأَتِهِ أَكْرِمِي مَثْوَاهُ عَسَىٰ أَن يَنفَعَنَا أَوْ نَتَّخِذَهُ وَلَدًا ۚ وَكَذَٰلِكَ مَكَّنَّا لِيُوسُفَ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَلِنُعَلِّمَهُ مِن تَأْوِيلِ الْأَحَادِيثِ ۚ وَاللَّـهُ غَالِبٌ عَلَىٰ أَمْرِهِ وَلَـٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ ﴿٢١﴾ وَلَمَّا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ آتَيْنَاهُ حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا ۚ وَكَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ ﴿٢٢﴾  
 
مصر کے جس شخص نے اسے خریدا اس نے اپنی بیوی سے کہا "اِس کو اچھی طرح رکھنا، بعید نہیں کہ یہ ہمارے لیے مفید ثابت ہو یا ہم اسے بیٹا بنا لیں" اس طرح ہم نے یوسفؑ کے لیے اُس سرزمین میں قدم جمانے کی صورت نکالی اور اسے معاملہ فہمی کی تعلیم دینے کا انتظام کیا اللہ اپنا کام کر کے رہتا ہے، مگر اکثر لوگ جانتے نہیں ہیں  
اور جب وہ اپنی پوری جوانی کو پہنچا تو ہم نے اسے قوت فیصلہ اور علم عطا کیا، اِس طرح ہم نیک لوگوں کو جزا دیتے ہیں  
 
 
وَرَاوَدَتْهُ الَّتِي هُوَ فِي بَيْتِهَا عَن نَّفْسِهِ وَغَلَّقَتِ الْأَبْوَابَ وَقَالَتْ هَيْتَ لَكَ ۚ قَالَ مَعَاذَ اللَّـهِ ۖ إِنَّهُ رَبِّي أَحْسَنَ مَثْوَايَ ۖ إِنَّهُ لَا يُفْلِحُ الظَّالِمُونَ ﴿٢٣﴾ وَلَقَدْ هَمَّتْ بِهِ ۖ وَهَمَّ بِهَا لَوْلَا أَن رَّأَىٰ بُرْهَانَ رَبِّهِ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ لِنَصْرِفَ عَنْهُ السُّوءَ وَالْفَحْشَاءَ ۚ إِنَّهُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا الْمُخْلَصِينَ ﴿٢٤﴾  
 
جس عورت کے گھر میں وہ تھا وہ اُس پر ڈورے ڈالنے لگی اور ایک روز دروازے بند کر کے بولی "آ جا" یوسفؑ نے کہا "خدا کی پناہ، میرے رب نے تو مجھے اچھی منزلت بخشی (اور میں یہ کام کروں!) ایسے ظالم کبھی فلاح نہیں پایا کرتے  
وہ اُس کی طرف بڑھی اور یوسفؑ بھی اس کی طرف بڑھتا اگر اپنے رب کی برہان نہ دیکھ لیتا ایسا ہوا، تاکہ ہم اس سے بدی اور بے حیائی کو دور کر دیں، در حقیقت وہ ہمارے چنے ہوئے بندوں میں سے تھا  
 
Tell me when Yousuf was bought by the people in Egypt, he was very young, as women said we will make him our son. Next ayat saying when Yousuf reached to his full youth, we have kitab and hikmah. Than the same women was attracted to him, who looked after him when he was young.  
What on earth a women who looked after a boy as a son, attracted to him when he reached to his full youth.  
 
Also in this translation, Allah said that that's how we give مَكَّنَّا لِيُوسُفَ فِي الْأَرْضِ . Is it really the way for a Nabi to be established on earth? Also tell me if yousuf had dreams, and Allah gave him tabeer for those dreams, how could that be possible these days. If i have dream now, who's gonna tell me tabeer for those dreams. My dear friend, because of these stories , our nation has gone in a sleeping mode. Please wake up and put your efforts for getting the true understanding of Quranic ayats. I will follow you on this mission.  
If there is something in Quran about Sex, i will definitely accept it. But I cannot give my own meanings to Quranic ayats, nor will i accept those one who gave their own meanings.
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/22/2011

 
35.Waseemameer,  
 
***Tell me when Yousuf was bought by the people in Egypt, he was very young, as women said we will make him our son. Next ayat saying when Yousuf reached to his full youth, we have kitab and hikmah. Than the same women was attracted to him, who looked after him when he was young.***  
 
***What on earth a women who looked after a boy as a son, attracted to him when he reached to his full youth.***  
 
What the heck is so dumbfounding about that?! Many women have sexually desired their foster children others for their students some for their own biological children. Woody Allen married his foster daughter. Are you this naïve Waseemameer? Are you familiar with the term “cougar”?  
 
COUGAR: An attractive woman in her 30's or 40's who is on the hunt once again. She may be found in the usual hunting grounds: nightclubs, bars, beaches, etc. She will not play the usual B.S. games that women in their early twenties participate in. Noun. A 35+ year old female who is on the "hunt" for a much younger, energetic, willing-to-do-anything male. The cougar can frequently be seen in a padded bra, cleavage exposed, propped up against a swanky bar in San Francisco (or other cities)waiting, watching, calculating; gearing up to sink her claws into an innocent young and strapping buck who happens to cross her path. "Man is cougar's number one prey". Cougars are gaining in popularity -- particularly the true hotties -- as young men find not only a sexual high, but many times a chick with her shit together. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cougar  
 
***Also in this translation, Allah said that that's how we give مَكَّنَّا لِيُوسُفَ فِي الْأَرْضِ . Is it really the way for a Nabi to be established on earth? Also tell me if yousuf had dreams, and Allah gave him tabeer for those dreams, how could that be possible these days. If i have dream now, who's gonna tell me tabeer for those dreams.***  
 
What details Allah wants you and the rest of mankind to know about Yusef are fully detailed in Al-Quran. Who cares what you dream, are you a prophet from Allah? Listen, the questions you ask may never be known to you in this world. This is the problem with you and the rest of the members here. You pose questions which you many never get the answer to and, because you can’t answer them or you don’t like the “orthodox translation”, you simply begin to indulge in conjecture and then seek to pass it off as Quranic knowledge/ilm. What you and the others do not like is that Al-quran is simple and plain. It is a book of moral conduct. But, no, you want complicated theorems and equations and to exchange flowery conjectures and discourses. No, you don’t want translations, because you want to interpret/conjecture.  
 
***My dear friend, because of these stories , our nation has gone in a sleeping mode..***  
 
6:106 Follow that which is revealed to thee from thy Lord — there is no god but He; and turn away from the polytheists/mushrikeen.  
 
People have fallen asleep because they reject 6:106, hence, they no longer know the meaning of salaa or, have knowledge of it and simply reject it.  
 
***Please wake up and put your efforts for getting the true understanding of Quranic ayats.***  
 
I assure you I am wide awake, sir.  
 
*** I will follow you on this mission. If there is something in Quran about Sex, i will definitely accept it ***  
 
Oh yeah? Then read the following again. These ayats are dealing with a prophet’s response to sexual temptation and his decision to remain chaste, in specific, and sexual conduct in general. I thoroughly connected ayats from sura’s 12, 17, 23, and 29 which clearly address sexual conduct. It’s RIGHT HERE IN FRONT OF YOU! READ, for god’s sake. The analysis I give here is spot on. Not one of you have refuted my analysis. Instead, you go off, as is your custom to do, ignore my analysis and ask a plethora of other unrelated questions or copy and paste links to others threads, sending me on a wild goose chase.  
 
Read the following again and tell me how I’ve missed the mark. Tell me where I’m wrong. No questions no links, just definitive statements from Quran as to why I’m wrong here.  
 
This story shows the power of the remembrance of Allah and salaa. Ayat 12:24 states that he turned from indecency/FASHAH and evil/SAHA (spelling). Why did he turn from fashah and saha? He turned because he remembered Allah, thus, he kept up his salaa.  
 
29:45 Recite that which has been revealed to thee of the Book and keep up prayer. Surely salaa keeps (one) away from indecency/FASHAH and evil/munkar; and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greater thing. And Allah knows what you do.  
 
Ayat 12:24, conceptually, was the borhan from his Lord.  
 
Btw, did you know that ayat 17:32 uses the same terms…fashah and saha as in 12:24?  
 
17:32 And don’t go near ZANA/unlawful sex; surely it is an indecency/fashah and an evil/saha way.  
 
Yusef, in ayat 12:24, restrained himself from engaging in unlawful sex/zana, because it was fahshah and saha.  
Now, are you going to claim that Yusef ran so that he would not distort Islamic ideology or that the Aziz’s woman would try to impose distorted Islamic ideology on him?  
 
Here’s another thing. You will also notice that Ayat 12:23 states that the wrong doers will not be SUCCESSFUL/FLAHA. Flaha-to succeed,/propser, is the same term used in 23:1  
 
23:1 SUCCESSFUL/FLAHA indeed are the believers… 23.5 And who guard their chastity.  
 
If Yusef had relinquished his chastity and given into the Aziz's woman, he would not have been successful. The same applies to all of us.  
 
Only a blind person would deny that Al-Quran doesn’t deal with sexual behavior.  
 
Do you get your information from Dr. Zaman or on your own? Let me know.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/22/2011

 
36.Waseemameer,  
 
Let me give you an example of "interpretation"/conjecture.  
 
Nargis, Moazzam, and the others, state that zana is--distortion of Islamic ideology. When you look at the definition of zana it is certainly discussing sexual behavior. Nargis, Moazzam and the others, fixated on the word "mount" and now zana becomes "distortion of Islamic ideology". This is a prime example of conjecturing. When I gave the ayats and term, kafirun, which does Quranically refer to those who would distort this Quran or Deen Al-Islam, it fell on deaf ears. Read the following when you get a chance. I want you to focus on the Yusef matter right now.  
 
Peace Nargis and All,  
 
The following is my reply to you. This is not a put down or an attack on you.  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?MID=2&SID=44&QID=573  
 
***NARGIS: then Zani is Someone who distort the Quraniq word. Have a look at Edward William lanes project root list : The word zina means : Zay-Nun-Ya = to mount, the mounting upon a thing, to commit fornication/adultery, fornicator/adulterer. http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm***  
 
41:26 Those who disbelieved said, "Do not listen to this Quran and distort it, that you may win."  
 
29:68 And who is more iniquitous than one who forges a lie against Allah, or gives the lie to the Truth, when it has come to him? Is there not an abode in hell for the disbelievers?  
 
41:40-41 Those who distort Our messages are not hidden from Us. Is he then who is cast into the Fire better or he who comes safe on the day of Resurrection? Do what you like, surely He is Seer of what you do. Those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them, and surely it is an Invincible Book:  
 
18:56 And We do not send messengers but as givers of good news and warning, and those who disbelieve make a false contention that they may render null thereby the truth, and they take My ayats and that with which they are warned for a mockery.  
 
4:140 And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah’s messages disbelieved in and mocked at, sit not with them until they enter into some other discourse, for then indeed you would be like them. Surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the disbelievers all in hell—  
 
The above five ayats deal with those “who distort the “Quraniq word” and Allah refers to them as the--disbelievers/kafara not the zani. I’ve seen no ayat where those who do zana are mentioned as distorters of the Quran. If you know of such an ayat I would like to see it.  
 
What also bears taking into account is this, “to mount”, in the English language anyway, has always had a sexual meaning to it, to wit:  
 
MOUNT: To climb onto a female for copulation. Used of male animals. To climb or ascend: To place oneself upon; get up on: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mount  
 
Clearly then, the Arabic dictionary definition is speaking to sexual behavior and not someone trying to distort Al-Quran, as you and the others proffer. What is also not being taken into full account by you and the others, regarding 24:2-3, is that zana stands in contradistinction to nikah/marriage contract. I'm not certain why you aren't looking more closely at this connection.  
 
Marriage is the institution by which Allah makes the expression of sexual behavior lawful, and zana (unlawful sexual behavior) stands in opposition to the institution of marriage.  
 
23:1-7 Successful indeed are the believers, …And who guard their chastity—*Except with their spouses or those whom their right hands possess, for such surely are not blameable,* But whoever seeks to go beyond that, such are transgressors —  
 
I’ve seen no Arabic definition where zana is construed to mean “hadiths mounting the Quran” and no ayat in Al-Quran even suggests that. This is simply someone’s made up definition (I’m not saying that it is yours), undoubtedly borne of contempt, and rightly so, for the Ritualists, but nothing in Al-Quran supports the definition/conclusion that zana means “one who distorts the Quran”.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/22/2011

 
37.Your telling lies about the Quran Dhulqarnain, you Zani, you distort the Quran- message. Og Sustainer, I pray for forgivnesss for this creature, please forgive him. Maibi he possessed by jinn. Have merci on his pour distorted soul, have merci . see lies and efford to distort the Quran by Dhulqarnain  
 
"41:26 Those who disbelieved said, "Do not listen to this Quran and distort it, that you may win." Dhulqarnain  
 
Here word WALGHAW is menshoned, and other translatiors say  
 
 
26 وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَا تَسْمَعُوا لِهَـٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ وَالْغَوْا فِيهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَغْلِبُونَ  
 
 
Transliteration 26: Waqala allatheena kafaroo la tasmaAAoo lihatha alqurani wailghaw feehi laAAallakum taghliboona  
 
 
Yusuf Ali 26: The Unbelievers say: "Listen not to this Qur'an, but talk at random in the midst of its (reading), that ye may gain the upper hand!"  
 
 
Shakir 26: And those who disbelieve say: Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.  
 
 
Pickthal 26: Those who disbelieve say: Heed not this Qur'an, and drown the hearing of it; haply ye may conquer.  
 
 
Mohsin Khan: 26: And those who disbelieve say: "Listen not to this Qur'an, and make noise in the midst of its (recitation) that you may overcome."http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=41&from_verse=26&to_verse=27&mac=&translation_setting=1&show_transliteration=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1&show_urdu=1  
 
Asking before too, who translaton you use? you remember when you added words in 4.24 and i arrest you?  
the end part one of dhulqarnains lie about quran and efford to distort it. next part will reveel more.
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/22/2011

 
38.  
18:56 And We do not send messengers but as givers of good news and warning, and those who disbelieve make a false contention that they may render null thereby the truth, and they take My ayats and that with which they are warned for a mockery.  
 
next you come with here this vers,other translatior sayTransliteration 56: Wama nursilu almursaleena illa mubashshireena wamunthireena wayujadilu allatheena kafaroo bialbatili liyudhidoo bihi alhaqqa waittakhathoo ayatee wama onthiroo huzuwan  
 
 
Yusuf Ali 56: We only send the apostles to give Glad Tidings and to give warnings: But the unbelievers dispute with vain argument, in order therewith to weaken the truth, and they treat My Signs as a jest, as also the fact that they are warned!  
 
 
Shakir 56: And We do not send messengers but as givers of good news and warning, and those who disbelieve make a false contention that they may render null thereby the truth, and they take My communications and that with which they are warned for a mockery.  
 
 
Pickthal 56: We send not the messengers save as bearers of good news and warners. Those who disbelieve contend with falsehood in order to refute the Truth thereby. And they take Our revelations and that wherewith they are threatened as a jest.  
 
 
Mohsin Khan: 56: And We send not the Messengers except as givers of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as a jest and mockery!  
 
can you see here the truth is not distorted but lies used AGAINST IT? can you see not same word use? i know many dum donkey but them can read and understand even.  
 
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/22/2011

 
39.Dear Dr. Qamar Sahab,  
I will be very glad, if you could say some words about this topic. This is a non-ending/non-productive discussion.  
Needless discussions and endless topics with no outputs  
Regards  
Waseem Ameer
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/22/2011

 
40. Ah Dear brother Waseem Ameer, its so refreshing to see your constructive and well thought out arguments, the way you approach a translation or the content and critically analyse it just make me so happy. As sister Maniza said, we cant push our views on others, we present our understanding and others can either study and accept it or reject it. Your right, its needless to have endless discussions with no outputs.Dhulqarnain will never understand, he again totally ignored the questions regarding surah Yousuf (posted above) but continue to ""convince" through orthodox translations. We are going nowhere.
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/22/2011

 
41.Thanks Sister Nargis, thanks for your encouragement. It meant a lot to me  
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/22/2011

 
42.Yellow Cow, Nargis, Waseemameer,  
 
***YELLOW COW: Your telling lies about the Quran Dhulqarnain, you Zani, you distort the Quran- message. Og Sustainer, I pray for forgivnesss for this creature, please forgive him. Maibi he possessed by jinn. Have merci on his pour distorted soul, have merci . see lies and efford to distort the Quran by Dhulqarnain***  
 
You’re very bizarre, do you know that?  
 
***YELLOW COW: Asking before too, who translaton you use? you remember when you added words in 4.24 and i arrest you? the end part one of dhulqarnains lie about quran and efford to distort it. next part will reveel more.***  
 
I arrive at my positions based on the following resources. Al-Quran, The Dictionary of the Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, and The Dictionary of Modern Arabic, by Hans Wehr, along with the main translators-- Muhammad Ali, Khalifa, Sher Ali, Shakir, Asad, Picthall, Yusuf Ali, and Sahih International. Now, no translation is perfect, (do you think Allah would not know this?) but, in he main, one can drive what is necessary to knw what to do and what to avoid in order to not do shirk, avoid Hell, and gain Paradise.  
 
In none of these resources has the term zana been associated with “distorting Islamic ideology”, not one. Maybe in the Lane’s Lexicon, I don’t know. If it’s in there I would love to see it. The word “mount”, which appears in definition in The Dictionary of the Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, has been twisted into “mounting upon the Quran” and then further twisted into “distortion of Islamic ideology”. You and the others would prefer to follow some wild conjecture rather than accept that, “mount”, in all cultures, has been associated with sexual intercourse.  
 
I presented you with several ayats where the case for the distortion of Islamic doctrine can be made. Please see again:  
 
41:26 Those who disbelieved said, "Do not listen to this Quran and distort it, that you may win."  
 
29:68 And who is more iniquitous than one who forges a lie against Allah, or gives the lie to the Truth, when it has come to him? Is there not an abode in hell for the disbelievers?  
 
41:40-41 Those who distort Our messages are not hidden from Us. Is he then who is cast into the Fire better or he who comes safe on the day of Resurrection? Do what you like, surely He is Seer of what you do. Those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them, and surely it is an Invincible Book:  
 
18:56 And We do not send messengers but as givers of good news and warning, and those who disbelieve make a false contention that they may render null thereby the truth, and they take My ayats and that with which they are warned for a mockery.  
 
4:140 And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah’s messages disbelieved in and mocked at, sit not with them until they enter into some other discourse, for then indeed you would be like them. Surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the disbelievers all in hell—  
 
The above five ayats deal with those “who distort the “Quraniq word” and Allah refers to them as the--disbelievers/kafara not the zani. I’ve seen no ayat where those who do zana are mentioned as distorters of the Quran. If you know of such an ayat I would like to see it.  
 
KAFARA: to cover, deny, hide, renounce, reject, disbelieve, be ungrateful.  
 
The Dictionary of the Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, pgs.489-490  
 
ZANA: to climb, commit adultery or fornication; zani: adulterer o fornicator.  
 
The Dictionary of the Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, pg. 236  
 
Now, given the above two definitions and the above ayats, which of the two definitions would most be associated with those who would, as you people put it, “distort Islamic ideology”, kaffirs or zanies? Keep in mind that anyone can be guilty of adultery or fornication and can have no knowledge of Al-Quran, however, kaffirs do have knowledge of Al-Quran but reject it and can still commit adultery and fornication. Those who reject Allah/Al-Quran must rationalize/distort things in order to justify their rejection. Zani’s do not have that same burden.  
 
Is it Dr. Zaman who is giving you people these ideas? You should bring him here to the site to defend his positions. I would enjoy exchanging posts with him.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/22/2011

 
43.and you follow Zakir naik or is this stupid argoments your own invent home cooking tragedy meal? Why you jump over my pint you zani, look how you change word  
 
"41:26 Those who disbelieved said, "Do not listen to this Quran and distort it, that you may win." Dhulqarnain  
 
Here word WALGHAW is menshoned, and other translatiors say  
 
 
26 وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَا تَسْمَعُوا لِهَـٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ وَالْغَوْا فِيهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَغْلِبُونَ  
 
 
Transliteration 26: Waqala allatheena kafaroo la tasmaAAoo lihatha alqurani wailghaw feehi laAAallakum taghliboona  
 
 
Yusuf Ali 26: The Unbelievers say: "Listen not to this Qur'an, but talk at random in the midst of its (reading), that ye may gain the upper hand!"  
 
 
Shakir 26: And those who disbelieve say: Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.  
 
 
Pickthal 26: Those who disbelieve say: Heed not this Qur'an, and drown the hearing of it; haply ye may conquer.  
 
 
Mohsin Khan: 26: And those who disbelieve say: "Listen not to this Qur'an, and make noise in the midst of its (recitation) that you may overcome."http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=41&from_verse=26&to_verse=27&mac=&translation_setting=1&show_transliteration=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1&show_urdu=1  
 
Asking before too, who translaton you use? you remember when you added words in 4.24 and i arrest you?  
the end part one of dhulqarnains lie about quran and efford to distort it. next part will reveel more.
Comments by: black-sheep On: 7/22/2011

 
44.I bizarre not finish with you and your lies yet  
 
18:56 And We do not send messengers but as givers of good news and warning, and those who disbelieve make a false contention that they may render null thereby the truth, and they take My ayats and that with which they are warned for a mockery.  
 
next you come with here this vers,other translatior sayTransliteration 56: Wama nursilu almursaleena illa mubashshireena wamunthireena wayujadilu allatheena kafaroo bialbatili liyudhidoo bihi alhaqqa waittakhathoo ayatee wama onthiroo huzuwan  
 
 
Yusuf Ali 56: We only send the apostles to give Glad Tidings and to give warnings: But the unbelievers dispute with vain argument, in order therewith to weaken the truth, and they treat My Signs as a jest, as also the fact that they are warned!  
 
 
Shakir 56: And We do not send messengers but as givers of good news and warning, and those who disbelieve make a false contention that they may render null thereby the truth, and they take My communications and that with which they are warned for a mockery.  
 
 
Pickthal 56: We send not the messengers save as bearers of good news and warners. Those who disbelieve contend with falsehood in order to refute the Truth thereby. And they take Our revelations and that wherewith they are threatened as a jest.  
 
 
Mohsin Khan: 56: And We send not the Messengers except as givers of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as a jest and mockery!  
 
can you see here the truth is not distorted but lies used AGAINST IT? can you see not same word use? i know many dum donkey but them can read and understand even.
Comments by: black-sheep On: 7/22/2011

 
45.Nargis, Waseemameer,  
 
Saying that I follow "orthodox translations", is not an argument, folks.  
 
Nargis and Waseemameer, I'm waiting for you to explain 12:2-29. You obviously reject my position, so what is yours? No bunch of questions, suppositions or conjectures, just direct/definitive statements, thanks.  
 
Where is Maniza? Does she support your positions? I would be surprised if she did.  
 
Where's Dr. Zaman?  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/22/2011

 
46.NARGIS, WASEEMAMEER, AND OTHERS,  
 
I asked Yellow COW about Allahu Akbar. The following is his reply. My question is---do you people actually believe his explanation of Allahu Akbar?  
 
YELLOW COW: It meaning is when you say somthing, it is meaningless. You can say you are Tarzan but it meaning nothing in reality form. But when 2/185 is understanding in right manner, it means that at successful completion of Ramadan u establish the commandment of Allah with power. Same in verse 74/3 here momins are instructed to show the vigilance for establishment of state powered with divine codes. Sura bani israeel from start to end will show mosa and firaon confrontation, and try of mosa to establish an independent state of bani israeel where divine system must work in power. So at conclusion the last instruction (17/111) given here is the essence of ALLAH HO AKBAR.This is the performance not the uttering. Uttering in loud is prohibited sea the verse 17/110. System of Quran establish WITH POWER is essense of Allah ho Akbar, meanins that this is the greatest systems of all systems. ITsnot talking about Allah in body form, its talking about the system. Again i enlight you the differnese between uttering something and carri out something, it meanin is to say something dosant make something happening. but a performance is happening and its trueful reality".  
 
Where's Maniza? Does she beleive the above?  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: PRIEST BOKMEI On: 7/22/2011

 
47.Believe or not beleive doesn't matter  
Laws of natures always follow man's action. They don't come before man does anything. Whether you say word thousand time or one time, don't make a difference
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/22/2011

 
48.***Believe or not beleive doesn't matter Laws of natures always follow man's action. They don't come before man does anything. Whether you say word thousand time or one time, don't make a difference***  
 
Is this a "no" to my question?, that is, you don't believe what Yellow Cow wrote?  
 
Or is it that you just know what Allahu Akbar means?  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: PRIEST BOKMEI On: 7/22/2011

 
49.Saying that I follow "orthodox translations", is not an argument, folks.  
 
You zani, firsht you posting traditionel translation and now you say we can not point it out? you not so smart you acting. tell why you lie about Quran?
Comments by: black-sheep On: 7/23/2011

 
50.Dear Dhulqurnain(explaination for 23/5-6)  
Hope you are still in the learning phase like all of us  
see ayat 50/6 for the meaning of furooj= weakness,flaws  
Comments by: waseemameer On: 7/28/2011

 
51.Waseemameer,  
 
***Dear Dhulqurnain(explaination for 23/5-6) Hope you are still in the learning phase like all of us  
see ayat 50/6 for the meaning of furooj= weakness,flaws.***  
 
I’m no master of the Quran; I’m always in a learning phase.  
 
FARAJA/FA-RA-JEEM: to open, to separate, cleave, split, let space between, space between legs; pudenda; womb; open place; chastity. Dictionary of the Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, pg.420  
 
Maulana Muhammad Ali: 50:6 Do they not look at the sky above them? — how We have made it and adorned it and it has no gaps.  
 
GAP: A break or hole in an object or between two objects: "he came through the gap in the hedge.  
Sahih International: 50:6 Have they not looked at the heaven above them - how We structured it and adorned it and it has no rifts?  
 
RIFT: A crack, split, or break in something.  
 
The terms “gap” and “rift” are consistent with the Arabic term faraja. It’s really obvious why faraja is translated as chastity. Using the English term “chastity” is a lot less graphic than the other English terms.  
 
Because some members here reject that Al-Quran addresses sexual behavior, faraja, as with zana, will become anything other than what the terms actually mean in Arabic and their usage in Al-Quran.  
 
You translate faraja as weakness. Would you tell me what translation uses "weakess" for faraja? I don’t find “weakness” in the Dictionary of the Quran, Abdul Mannan Omar. When I get home I will check the Hans Wehr and Lanes dictionaries. Faraja may also mean weakness, but weakness is not how Allah is using it in His Quran.  
I’ve seen faraja translated by some as “flaw”, but, as with “weakness”, it does not fit with other ayats where faraja is used.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/28/2011

 
52.DHULQARNAIN, WHAT ARE MARRIGE RULES REGULATIONS FOR PIPOLE WHO ARE NOT MAN OR WOMAN, WHO ARE BOTH? CAN THEY MARRI OR NOT? HOW MANY WIFEY HUSBAND CAN A HEMALE HAVE, AND IS SHEMALE CONSIDER LIKE WOMAN, IS SHE RIGHT HAND POSESSION OF A HEMALE?  
 
WHAT IS FAHSA ZINA FOR THEM? HERE YOU SEE ONE BORN LIKE HALF MAN WOMEN, http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cP0pJ4PhGIQ/TRjjIsKIpKI/AAAAAAAAGds/GrV54I-Wem4/s1600/hijra.jpg  
 
IS HIM RAJJAL AND QAWAMOUN OR NISA?  
 
NOT YOUR PARSANOL OPINIAN, BUT REFERANCES FROM QURAN ONLY.
Comments by: black-sheep On: 7/28/2011

 
53. This is a valid point, if someone is born with a defected X chromosome the Y chromosome is not able to produce hormones, one is born with both characteristics(of "manwoman")http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_anomalies_of_the_genitalia.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguous_genitalia#Conditions  
 
The point is, who is "Rajal" and "nisa" (as it’s understood in the standard translation) when it comes to them?  
 
If the Quran regulate rights and obligations based on gender, and delegate different tasks to men and women because they are meant to be different, what category would these people be? Hope to see an answer through the Quran.
 
Comments by: Nargis On: 7/29/2011

 
54.Narge,  
 
The question of sexual gender ambiguity is an interesting one. I don’t know, at this time, how Al-Quran comes down on this issue. I can say, however, that the vast vast majority of men and women do not have this issue and Al-Quran is exquisitely clear on how they are to behave sexually...to be chaste unless married.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/29/2011

 
55.You mean Quran is meant only for MEN and WOMEN???  
Why such people are ignored? Ain't they human beings???  
And these people are running the major part of Prostitution industry in India and Pakistan.  
You mean to say that these people are exempted from all punishments???  
Do they have the license to do all sexual activities, since quran doesn't talk about them???
Comments by: Perwez1 On: 7/29/2011

 
56.***You mean Quran is meant only for MEN and WOMEN?? Why such people are ignored? Ain't they human beings??? And these people are running the major part of Prostitution industry in India and Pakistan.  
You mean to say that these people are exempted from all punishments??? Do they have the license to do all sexual activities, since quran doesn't talk about them???***  
 
If you, as with Nargis, Yellow Cow, Junaid and others, don't believe that Allah/Al-Quran addresses sexual behavior, what difference does it make to you anyway how these people behave sexually?  
 
As I said, I have not looked into this subject so I cannot state with confidence how Al-Quran rules. Here's a suggestion though, why don't you and yellow cow make a study of this group and report back to us. In the meantime, those of us unaffected by gender ambiguity need to abide by Allah's Command and practice chasity unless married.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 7/29/2011

 
57.Don't run away from the question Dhulqarnain. It's you who is insisting that Quran talks about sexual matters and treats men and women separately. If that is true then there must be something mentioned about the third gender because they are also a part of human species. How can the book neglect them???  
You must answer this question because there are many people who belong to this third gender and they are definitely spreading sex and prostitution. Perhaps It is not their fault because we have completely isolated them from our social lives and economy therefore they have no option but sex to earn their living. We humans have been unfair with these people but how can Allah be unfair to them???  
If sexual matters and relationships between men and women are so important and that Zina is sex, if fohash is porn and that women have a lower grade as compared to men, then why Quran has ignored such an important point???  
You can take some time if you need but it's entirely your responsibility to answer the question because it's you who says Quran is talking about sex and women in detail, not me!!!!
Comments by: Perwez1 On: 7/29/2011

 
58.PERWEZ,  
 
***If Quran is so specific about men and women, why the third gender has been neglected?  
After all there are millions of people in this world who belong to this third gender and having neglected badly by rest of the societies, they have no option left but to earn money through sex!!!***  
 
What, exactly, defines a “third gender”? Please post your definition.  
 
Do any in this third gender produce sperm?  
 
Do any in this third gender have wombs?  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: PRIEST BOKMEI On: 7/29/2011

 
59.  
He don't have to define something which is defined by the nature-here you can read about the "third gender". Their body have both features, you can read about it here  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_anomalies_of_the_genitalia.  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguous_genitalia#Conditions  
 
Those who have this syndrome is not considered insane, they can think talk and understand.  
 
The Quran is a guidance to EVERYONE 14:1, that include every human being no matter how their body look like.  
 
So which one is Rajaal and which one is Nisa, which one is the qawamon and whos there to be beaten up 4:34?  
 
Whos the tilt and whos the owner?  
 
Whos the zani and whos the zania ?  
 
Only through the Quran please...
Comments by: Nargis2 On: 7/29/2011

 
60.***He don't have to define something which is defined by the nature-here you can read about the "third gender". Their body have both features, you can read about it here***  
 
No, he most certainly does.  
 
***Those who have this syndrome is not considered insane, they can think talk and understand.***  
 
I'm not asking about their cognitive abilities at this time  
 
I asked:  
 
What, exactly, defines a “third gender”? Please post your definition.  
 
Nargis, I don't want any links. I want you or Perwez to copy and post the definition of "third gender" so that there will be no confusion about your positions.  
 
Please answer the following:  
 
Do any in this third gender produce sperm? Yes or no.  
 
Do any in this third gender have wombs? Yes or no.  
 
Are you stating that third gender people as a group, each individual in that group can produce sperm and has a womb? If so, then please copy and post the evidence, thanks. Or, are you stating that a particular segment of third gender people can produce sperm and have a womb in the same individual? Which is it? Make yourself clear. No links. Copy and paste your evidence.  
 
***The Quran is a guidance to EVERYONE 14:1, that include every human being no matter how their body look like.***  
 
14:1 I, Allah, am the Seer. A Book which We have revealed to thee that thou mayest bring forth men, by their Lord’s permission, from darkness into light, to the way of the Mighty, the Praised One.  
 
It's amazing how you accept "orthodox translations" when it suits you!  
 
Anyway, if you're going to quote Al-Quran as guidance, then you, and others, would be better served if you quoted an ayat which identifies Al-Quran as guidance. The word huda/guidance is not found in 14:1. Following are some ayats you can use in the future to express Al-Quran as guidance.  
 
2:185 The month of Ramadan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the Criterion...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for having guided you and that you may give thanks.  
 
17:9 Surely this Quran guides to that which is most upright, and gives good news to the believers who do good that theirs is a great reward.  
 
The folloling ayats do not mention Quran, but it is still a stronger ayat than 14:1  
 
5:15-16 O People of the Book, indeed Our Messenger has come to you, making clear to you much of that which you concealed of the Book and passing over much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah, a Light and a clear Book, Whereby Allah guides such as follow His pleasure into the ways of peace, and brings them out of darkness into light by His will, and guides them to the right path.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: PRIEST BOKMEI On: 7/29/2011

 
61.Dhulqarnain  
 
So you're not going to answer our questions?  
Comments by: Nargis2 On: 7/30/2011

 
62.Nargis,  
 
I asked Perwez a question and you jumped in. So, now you and he, or just you, need to answer the questions which derive directly from your's and his comments about "third gender". But, as always, when you and the others are cornered and cannot produce evidence to support your claims, you either obstruct, ignore, play dumb, ask 30,000 other questions or simply make silly comments etc. etc.etc. I only have five posts per day and now I waste one on this reply.  
 
Stop playing games, Narge.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
Comments by: PRIEST BOKMEI On: 7/30/2011

 
63.Now your lying  
 
Black-sheep asked YOU a question and I added my questions, relevant to your claims and line of thought, before you asked for a personal definition of the third gender. You reject reference to articles providing scientific proof for the defected chromosomes of such people, and want us to prove something we never claimed?  
 
This is not an respectable attitude, if you don't want to answer its okay. You ran away from other posts earlier, like when i asked about 11:49, 4:24, 4:25 and so on.  
 
Let me know when your going to answer these questions, meanwhile ill continue ignoring your baseless arguments.  
 
Questions from Black-sheep  
 
DHULQARNAIN, WHAT ARE MARRIGE RULES REGULATIONS FOR PIPOLE WHO ARE NOT MAN OR WOMAN, WHO ARE BOTH? CAN THEY MARRI OR NOT? HOW MANY WIFEY HUSBAND CAN A HEMALE HAVE, AND IS SHEMALE CONSIDER LIKE WOMAN, IS SHE RIGHT HAND POSESSION OF A HEMALE?  
 
WHAT IS FAHSA ZINA FOR THEM? HERE YOU SEE ONE BORN LIKE HALF MAN WOMEN, http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cP0pJ4PhGIQ/TRjjIsKIpKI/AAAAAAAAGds/GrV54I-Wem4/s1600/hijra.jpg  
 
IS HIM RAJJAL AND QAWAMOUN OR NISA?  
 
NOT YOUR PARSANOL OPINIAN, BUT REFERANCES FROM QURAN ONLY.  
 
Me:-  
 
This is a valid point, if someone is born with a defected X chromosome the Y chromosome is not able to produce hormones, one is born with both characteristics(of "manwoman")http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_anomalies_of_the_genitalia.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguous_genitalia#Conditions  
 
The point is, who is "Rajal" and "nisa" (as it’s understood in the standard translation) when it comes to them?  
 
If the Quran regulate rights and obligations based on gender, and delegate different tasks to men and women because they are meant to be different, what category would these people be? Hope to see an answer through the Quran.
Comments by: Nargis2 On: 7/30/2011

 
64.Black Sheep, then you, brought up the concept of "third gender". I then asked you people for clarification as to wjhat you mean mean by "third gender" and to provide the evidence. If you want me to answer, then I need to know from you the following.  
 
Nargis, I don't want any links. I want you or Perwez to copy and post the definition of "third gender" so that there will be no confusion about your positions.  
 
Please answer the following:  
 
Do any in this third gender produce sperm? Yes or no.  
 
Do any in this third gender have wombs? Yes or no.  
 
Are you stating that third gender people as a group, each individual in that group can produce sperm and has a womb? If so, then please copy and post the evidence, thanks. Or, are you stating that a particular segment of third gender people can produce sperm and have a womb in the same individual? Which is it? Make yourself clear. No links. Copy and paste your evidence.  
 
All I'm asking is for clarification on your questions/positions on "third gender"...what's the problem?!  
 
Do you see how you waste time and obstruct? Don't you possess the ego strength to just deal straight? I don't get you.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: PRIEST BOKMEI On: 7/30/2011

 
65.Instead of running away from the question, asking silly explanation, you should focus on the real issue.  
I think Nargis has already shared the details about the third gender, but you are too lazy to click those links and read.  
Also Black sheep has shared a photo too but you are acting as if you are a 5 year old kid, simply because you have no answer!!!  
It is you who said Quran talks about Sex and relations between genders in detail. If yes then something must have been mentioned about those who are a part of human species yet totally neglected by others and living a miserable life.  
If sex and genders are the topics of Quran, then it is not possible that Quran says nothing about these people who are not assigned with any GENDER in our societies.  
Theses people are totally neglected socially and have no other option but to earn money through prostitution.  
The question is simple;  
Tell me what does Quran says about them and their sexual activities?  
If Quran says nothing then, are they allowed to do prostitution?  
 
Do not make the question complicated by asking silly explanations. You already know what this third gender is.  
 
Let me address your silly questions anyway!  
 
DHULQARNAIN: Do any in this third gender produce sperm? Yes or no  
 
I'll ask one of these people to masturbate in front of me. Only then I can check whether they can produce sperms or not. In fact it's you who is keen to know that. Why don't you ask one of these people. Afterall there are many such people in USA as well, doing prostitution. Ain't they???  
 
DHULQARNAIN: Do any in this third gender have wombs? Yes or no.  
 
What is WOMB got to do with this? Do men have wombs? If not then why two men cannot have sex with each other? After all they will not be producing babies ain't they? Then why Gay sex is not allowed?  
 
I think anyone can undestand the simple point that you are asking needless questions to divert the topic.  
Just stick to the question. Tell me what does Quran says about these people?  
Does their sexual activities come into the category of ZINA and FOHASH?  
If yes then how? And What would they be called? ZANI or ZANIAH?  
Since they have no other option to earn their living, what else they can do???  
Comments by: Perwez1 On: 7/30/2011

 
66.In biology, a hermaphrodite(also called third gender/ intersex in humans) is an organism that has reproductive organs normally associated with both male and female sexes  
 
2. (Medicine) a person having both male and female sexual characteristics and genital tissues  
Humans  
 
True hermaphroditism in humans differs from pseudohermaphroditism in which the person has both X and Y chromosomes (not to be confused with the normal XY chromosome of males), having both testicular and ovarian tissue, and having both but ambigously looking external genitalia. One possible pathophysiologic explanation of this rare phenomenon is a parthenogentic division of a haploid ovum into two haploid ova. Upon fertilization of the two ova by two sperm cells (one carrying an X and the other carrying a Y chromosome), the two fertilized ova are then fused together resulting in a person having dual genitalial, gonadal and genetic sex.  
 
Intersex, in humans and other animals, is the presence of intermediate or atypical combinations of physical features that usually distinguish female from male. This is usually understood to be congenital, involving chromosomal, morphologic, genital and/or gonadal anomalies, such as diversion from typical XX-female or XY-male presentations, e.g., sex reversal (XY-female, XX-male), genital ambiguity, or sex developmental differences. An intersex individual may have biological characteristics of both the male and the female sexes.  
 
backround: originally coming from hermes, greek messanger god, and aphrodite, the greek goddes of love. hermaphrodite(with a long e sound) was originally the child of hermes and aphrodite, and was both male and female.  
 
the ONLY definitions are as follows, if used for any other definition, the word has been used improperly or metaphorically.  
 
1. a person who has both sets of sex organs (male and female), but not neccessarily having the ability to reproduce.  
 
Definition of Hermaphrodite  
 
1. A hermaphrodite is an organism having both male and female reproductive organs. In many species, hermaphroditism is a common part of the life-cycle, enabling a form of sexual reproduction in which partners are not separated into distinct male and female types of individual. Hermaphroditism most commonly occurs in invertebrates, although it is also found in some fish, and to a lesser degree in other vertebrates.  
 
Historically, the term hermaphrodite has also been used to describe ambiguous genitalia and gonadal mosaicism in individuals of gonochoristic species, especially human beings. The term comes from the name of the minor Greek god Hermaphroditus, son of Hermes and Aphrodite.  
 
Recently, intersex has been used and preferred by many such individuals, encouraging medical professionals to use the term.  
 
Medical Definition of Hermaphrodite  
 
1. An organism which has both male and female organs, and produces both male gametes (sperm) and female gametes (eggs). The organism can have both types of organs at the same time (simultaneous hermaphrodite) or have one type early in life and the other type later in life (sequential hermaphrodite).
Comments by: Nargis2 On: 7/30/2011

 
67.Nargis,  
 
Thank you for your clarification! Indeed, when it comes to “third gender”, the only population that could ever be considered as such would be those identified as “true hermaphrodites”---an extremely rare event in the human population. Shemales, lesbians, gays, transsexuals, etc. are all born clearly anatomically as either male (having testes/ability to produce sperm) or females (having ovaries/wombs).  
 
Please read the the following short piece:  
 
"What is a True Hermaphrodite? Hermaphrodites, while common in nature, are rare in the human population. But when someone appears to be both woman and man, they still may not be a true hermaphrodite  
 
Read more at Suite101: What is a Hermaphrodite?: When Gender Testing Determines a Person is Both Male and Female | Suite101.com http://www.suite101.com/content/what-is-a-hermaphrodite-a147910#ixzz1TYHHxM7L  
 
The word "hermaphrodite" comes from the Greek god Hermaphroditus, who was both fully male and fully female. A true hermaphrodite, therefore, would be someone who has fully functioning male and female sex organs. THIS DOESN’T HAPPEN IN HUMANS, who could more correctly be called "pseudo hermaphrodites." The politically correct or preferred term is "intersex."  
 
Definition of "Intersex"  
 
Intersex is a term that denotes a wide variety of gender development disorders. Traditionally, a pair of XX chromosomes denotes a woman and a pair of XY chromosomes denotes a man. But intersex humans, or hermaphrodites, don't fall neatly into either gender category. Regardless of their chromosomal makeup, the appearance of the external organs suggests one gender while their internal reproductive system suggests another.  
 
Are Human Hermaphrodites Both Male and Female at the Same Time? Since no intersex person IS A TRUE HERMAPHRODITE (both female and male,) EVERY HERMAPHRODITE ACUTUALLY DOES HAVE A GENDER. According to Dr. Thomas M. Greiner of the MadSci Network, the functioning of the internal gonads is the determinant. A male hermaphrodite has testes; a female hermaphrodite has ovaries.  
 
In rare cases the gonads themselves may have characteristics of both ovaries and testes, in which case the person is truly ambiguous in gender. Dr. Greiner explains that "the [intersex] person you are LOOKING AT EITHER MALE OR FEMALE, possibly neither – but never both."  
 
http://www.suite101.com/content/what-is-a-hermaphrodite-a147910  
 
The above article is certainly in accord with the following ayat;  
 
53:45 And that He creates mates/spouses/zaja, the male/dhakara and the female/anatha.  
 
Allah says that He created males and females. He makes no mention of a third sex/gender. Hermaphrodites, as the above article indicates, do in fact, have a gender. In that they have a gender, they are thus obligated to follow the Command of chastity/faraja and seek a mate/zaja of the opposite gender for marriage/nikah. As homosexuals couples cannot reproduce, it is clear that Allah defines gender based on anatomy and ability to reproduce and not on someone feeling that he/she’s soul is in the wrong body/gender. The rare cases where true gender ambiguity many exist still does not rule out the fact that the individual is, in fact, one gender or the other.  
 
There is no escaping the obvious fact that Al-Quran addresses sexual behavior/faraja.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: PRIEST BOKMEI On: 7/30/2011

 
68.What gender is this http://im.in.com/connect/images/profile/aug2009/Laxmi_Narayan_Tripathi_300.jpg  
Scainse proving it is disorder and they have both genticles, now you answer question and not running away .What the Quran say about them?and you agian use orthodox translation "53:45 And that He creates mates/spouses/zaja, the male/dhakara and the female/anatha. "  
 
why zakara is translated as the male when it means to remember? What the kontext here? When will you answaring other question of Junaid in other thread?how long you hiding?
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/30/2011

 
69.Dhulqarnain asking if statement is correct according to Quran, but where dr Qamar Zaman said "SO ACTUALLY THERE IS NOTHING TO BE CALLED PREMARITAL SEX". is vritten in Quran?
Comments by: Yellow-cow On: 7/30/2011

 
70.Dear members, I need your attention Please!  
 
I would like to share some information about Dhulqarnain, so that you all could know the real motive behind his presence on aastana.  
I was wondering why he is trying to prolong the debates, forcing his views on others and constantly challenging Dr. Qamar for a debate. I went through all the previous posts in order to understand the real agenda behind a constant and non-stop provocation by Dhulqarnain.  
 
Please allow me to share the details here;  
 
Dhulqarnain has accepted the fact that he is not an expert in Arabic language or grammar, yet he has been forcing his understanding based on vague statements having no practical theories. He quoted various translations done by those who belong to particular sects and were the followers of man-made sharia instead of Quran. All these people are the followers of Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shaffi, Imam Maalik, Imam Hanbal and most importantly, the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani, which is the worst ezample of personality cult.  
 
Those who themselves are following Imams instead of Quran cannot provide the real meanings of SHIRK, ZINA, FOHASH, SALAAT or ZAKAAT.  
 
Please note that the following statements by Dhulqarnain;
 
 
I have absolutely no idea where you got these definitions from, but they are certainly not the ones Allah is using in his Quran. I use the following dictionary. It’s a very good resource. The Dictionary of the Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar. - By Dhulqarnain  
 
I arrive at my positions based on the following resources. Al-Quran, The Dictionary of the Quran, by Abdul Mannan Omar, and The Dictionary of Modern Arabic, by Hans Wehr, along with the main translators-- Muhammad Ali, Khalifa, Sher Ali, Shakir, Asad, Picthall, Yusuf Ali, and Sahih International. - By Dhulqarnain
 
 
This name Abdul Mannan Omer was quite unfamiliar and I was really wondering who this guy is, but then Dhulqarnain quoted Muhammad Ali and everything became crystal clear. This person Abdul Mannan is a follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani and so in Muhammad Ali.  
 
Here are the links;  
 
http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2011/06/29/interview-with-maulana-abdul-mannan-omar/  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_(writer)  
 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wickers_poet/2663030746/  
 
Now I think you all will understand why Dhulqarnain has been asserting his strange views which were totally vague and deceptive. It is the basic job of these people to misguide people and disturb them from understanding the real message of Quran. There are many so called "scholars" who are busy challenging people from various sects and religions, debating with them and proving them wrong, but so far I have not seen any positive outcome from such debates. People like Ahmad Deedat and Zakir Nayak are clear examples of those who waste everyone's time in such meaningless debates.  
Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani who himself was a creation of British Empire did the same thing when Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and Allama Iqbal were trying to educate people in Sub-Continent. In short, Dhulqarnain belongs to a sect which is one of the worst example of personality cult and such people can never understand what SHIRK is.  
 
Now I hope Mr. Dhulqarnain will avoid creating further disturbance on this forum, since he and his sect has been exposed.
 
Comments by: Junaid On: 8/1/2011

 
71.***JUNAID: Dear members, I need your attention Please! I would like to share some information about Dhulqarnain, so that you all could know the real motive behind his presence on aastana… Now I hope Mr. Dhulqarnain will avoid creating further disturbance on this forum, since he and his sect has been exposed. ***  
 
***YELLOW COW: I always knowing this information***  
 
I’m really glad you wrote this and I will tell you why. The way in which you are impugning things to me, which, btw, are untrue, is exactly your approach to Al-Quran! You’ve impugned many things to Allah’s Quran/Deen which are just not true, but you don’t care. Like I told Perwez, if I were Qadiyani…I would tell you in an INSTANT! What?!..do you think you frighten me?! I follow no sects/blogs or personalities as you do here. I follow 6:106, PERIOD! You’ve taken some books, among others I use, and extrapolate from that “the real motive behind my presence on aastana” and that…” his sect has been exposed”. Don’t you realize that what you’re saying is slander?! You cannot peer into my heart and see my motives for anything nor do you have any information that I belong to any sect. You know nothing of what you say, yet, you go right on in your aggressive ignorance conjecturing and making wild claims and accusations as if you are speaking Truth!  
 
What's bothering you is that I've shown you and others the flaws in some of your positions and now you're getting...nervous. For examples, I’ve shown you that mutashabiyat is not “doubt”, but “similar” and made the claim that Fatiha (I will give you the argument soon. I was hoping someone would at least challenge me on this claim, but..no. It’s more fun to lie aout me) is not even a Sura. The above argument on Allahu Akbar completely undermines your notions of what it means, and that’s why no one has yet to attempt to refute it. I’ve shown clearly that Al-Quran addresses sexual behavior, but because you lack the moral and ego strength to step from your mistakes you remain in denial.  
 
I call to witness Allah that I am NOT Qadiyani nor do I belong to ANY sect. I follow Allah/Al-Quran ALONE. Now, do you call Allah to witness that I’m a liar? If so, bring your irrefutable proof. If not, then apologize for misrepresenting/assigning lies to me/slandering me and let’s get back to Quranic discussions. Here’s an idea for a start, why don’t you refute the Allahu Akbar argument above or show that Fatiha is a sura, because you claim that it is.  
 
Dhulqarnain- .  
 
 
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 8/1/2011

 
72.Is your approach to the Quran true, when you use qadiyani translations without questioning it? Why have you not answered questions relevant to your translation as mentioned above? What research have you done on these translations and how can you prove they are true? You never bothered to answer Yellow Cow about 4:24-25 and why your translator added words to the ayahs. And you want us to believe your approach to the Quran is sincere and true? your not even able to question your own translations, why would we believe in what you say when you hide whenever your told to explain your translations? If your sincere and true Quran follower, you shouldn't have any problems when your asked questions relevant to your translations.
Comments by: Universal-Lanati On: 8/1/2011

 
73.***Is your approach to the Quran true, when you use qadiyani translations without questioning it? have you not answered questions relevant to your translation as mentioned above? What research have you done on these translations and how can you prove they are true? your not even able to question your own translations, ***  
 
I use the following translations, among others:Shakir, Asad, Ali, M, Ali, Y, Ali, S, Khalifa, Pickthall, Noble etc.,  
 
Now, here is a shocker for you…NONE OF THE TRANSLATIONS ARE 100% ACCURATE! No, not EVEN DR. ZAMAN”S.  
If I didn’t question the translations, how is it that I no longer do rituals in regard to Deen of Allah?!?  
 
***Why You never bothered to answer Yellow Cow about 4:24-25 and why your translator added words to the ayahs. why would we believe in what you say when you hide whenever your told to explain your translations?.***  
 
All the translators add or delete words in an attempt to bring the Arabic Quran into the language of the non-Arabic speakers. This is why I use word for word Qurans along with dictionaries and lexicons to see for myself what’s going on. I don’t hide.  
 
What is your concern with 4:24-25?  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 8/2/2011

 
74.What is your concern with 4:24-25? Qadiani dhul  
 
Problem is written on the previous threads, make an effort and read through them, its your threads and you ignored these "problems".  
 
How can you use dictionary alone and not look at the grammar, do the tasreef and rattal?
Comments by: Universal-Lanati On: 8/2/2011

 
75.I'm not going wade through a bunch posts. If you have a concern about 4:24-25 then please state it, thanks.  
 
I don't use the dictionary alone. I do look at grammar as evidenced by my Allahu Akbar argument (and the Kaf ـك‎argument to come later). Grammar, however, does not supercede definition and context. The desert Arabs who first heard Al-Quran...were they versed in grammar? Many were illiterates. Grammar and the diacritical marks came later on.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 8/2/2011

 
76.Why did you ignore them in the first place? Do you think your very intelligent when everyone can see you ignore questions in threads started by you, so you can later say I don't want to wade trough bunch of posts?You mean to say you have not read or seen questions asked you regarding 4.24-25?  
 
Do you have to be a linguist or expert in the English language to understand the difference between past or present, plural or singular form, definite or indefinite form ?  
 
Do you need a PHD degree in English grammar to understand the difference between "house" or "THE house"?  
 
Can you find any grammar mistakes in the Quran? Who are "THE women" in 2:183.187 ?  
 
If the grammar is not present at the time the Quran is written, how is it possible to know what the author meant with definite or indefinite form? Why can't you with your dictionary and grammar check up see the difference between yahood and AL yahood?
Comments by: Universal-Lanati On: 8/2/2011

 
77.Let’s do this:  
 
1. What, exactly, is your concern with 4:24-25? Present your agument and we’ll debate it.  
 
2. Copy and paste from the dictionary which shows the difference between yahood and al-yahood I would very much like to see what your talking about.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 8/2/2011

 
78.1. No  
 
2. Read for yourself  
 
No spoon feeding, you want an answer, make an effort to get it, otherwise,you know what to do.
Comments by: Universal-Lanati On: 8/2/2011

 
79.***make an effort to get it,***  
 
No thanks, I'm not doing YOUR work; that's out.  
 
***otherwise,you know what to do.***  
 
If you cannot or will not articulate your position clearly, then, no problem...see ya.  
 
Dhulqarnain-  
 
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 8/2/2011

 
80.Yes, run away like the coward Qadiani you are, that's what I wanted to show, once again!
Comments by: Universal-Lanati On: 8/2/2011

 
81.I am no coward.  
 
I am no Qadiyani.  
 
I am not running.  
 
Present your case.  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: ARCHILOCUS On: 8/3/2011

 
82.yeh yeh  
 
 
Everything is presented, you ignored it and hoped no one would notice your character.
Comments by: Universal-Lanati On: 8/3/2011

 
83.You waste more time with meaningless tangents when you can just simply restate your position.  
 
As far as my characted is concerned, per ayat 49:6 , it is a non-issue. What's important is what I argue/the information I proffer.  
 
49:6 O you who believe, if an unrighteous man/wicked individual/fasiq brings you news, LOOK CAREFULLY INTO IT, lest YOU HARM a people in IGNORANCE, then be sorry for what YOU DID.  
 
Isn't Allah just wonderful! When it comes to information, well, He looks past character and tells YOU to focus the information. In fact, if any harm is done to others, because some information is ignored/rejected, He places the BLAME not on the fasiq information bearer, but on the individual who did not properly look into it and follow it if it was sound information.  
 
I know, I know, it's a Qadiyani translation so who cares, so tell me, what does your ttranslation says?  
 
Dhulqarnain-
Comments by: DHULQARNAIN On: 8/3/2011

 
 AASTANA.COM © 2005-2010