TOPIC: Islam >> Beliefs
Q.Dear All, what is Ahmed Huluci's Ellah ( idoelogy ) of Islam ?
By: Mubashir Syed On: 12/20/2010

1.Dear Mubashir Syed,  
 
I am afraid, for your answer you will have to take up a formidable labor of heavily taxing your brains - i.e., to go through carefully each and every word of the Scholar's lengthy and detailed writings posted on his website :-  
 
http://www.ahmedhulusi.org/en/  
 
In the end, you may find nothing new except another style of intellectual expressionism peculiar to the writer alone.  
 
We must nevertheless appreciate his devotion and sincere endeavors towards the cause of understanding different concepts enshrined in Islamic philosophy.
Comments by: aurangzaib On: 12/21/2010

 
2.Well Mubashir Syed,  
 
Thanks for posting the link. I will read and than post back.
Comments by: momin On: 12/21/2010

 
3.Dear Mubashir Syed,  
 
I was reading essays by hulusi, he is inclined towards mysticism. However, his writtings are  
condiderable and must be read by a truth lover. You may not find the whole truth , yet much material for your  
intllectual thirst. Here is a good essay, I am posting below. This reinforces the concept given by Mr. Abdun in his  
essay God and Allah in his site www.servantofthelight.com  
 
 
From A God Beyond To Allah Within by Ahmed Hulusi.  
 
A group of unaware people who pass judgements about the “Religion” based on their hearsay and false information, have been employing the word “GOD” instead of the name “ALLAH,” being unaware of the matter and thinking that these words both carry the same meaning, and also relating it with their patriotism according to their whims...  
 
In the previous chapter, I have tried to make it clear that any concept that the word “god” refers to is completely different in meaning than what the name “ALLAH” refers to. These are two different words with completely different meanings.  
 
Shall we now make it clear through a passage from the Koran Interpretation written by the excellent interpreter Hamdi Yazir of Elmali in 1940's, which is most comprehensive and detailed interpretation published in Turkish by the Religious Affairs Directorate. Let us see what he says in it:  
 
“The word ALLAH has never been applied to anything other than ALLAH, neither in proper form nor in common. Take the names such as “ilah” and “huda,” for example; none of them is a proper noun as “ALLAH.” They imply a concept of “god” (ilaah), “lord” (rabb) or “idol” (maabud). It has been said “gods”(alihatun) as the plural form of “god,” “lords” (arbab) as of “lord,” etc…Unlike, it has never been said “ALLAHS” and can never be said so. If we hear such a usage of words from someone, we conclude that he is ignorant and negligent. The noun “GOD” is not like this; you can even call false idols as “gods.” Pagans (mushrikeen) even used to worship many gods. Some of them had so-and-so gods, others had so-and-so gods.  
 
So, the common name GOD is not synonymous for the proper noun “ALLAH,” and is not an equivalent for “ALLAH.” “God” is a very common phrase! Therefore one should never translate the name “ALLAH” as “GOD.” (Vol. 1, p. 24-25)  
 
One should never call “ALLAH” as “god,” according to this excellent Koran Interpretation written in Turkish.  
 
We must also take the following significant differences into consideration:  
 
The word “god” is a common adjective, yet “ALLAH” is a proper noun for the Unique Essence (zat), out of Whose there is nothing independent in existence.  
 
I mean, that is not a matter of mere languages or word pronunciation. There is an enormous difference between the meanings of these two words.  
 
An understanding of a religion with a “god” or a concept of “godliness” is groundless and false!  
 
The original “Deen-i ISLAM” in effect is fully based on the meaning denoted by the name “ALLAH.”  
 
The statement “la ilaha ill-Allah” means “there is no god, there is ALLAH alone.” In order to be an earnest Muslim, we must first distinct that difference in meaning properly.  
 
If we limit our comprehension fixed with a concept of a “god,” we suffer the detriment of the meaning the name “ALLAH” refers to, for it will consequently make us losers of the treasure of khaliphness (khilafat) mystery.  
 
“God” is a being out-there, afar-off yourself, that is worshipped!  
 
“ALLAH” is the Reality (haqiqat) within your Essence, Who is being served all along!  
 
“God” is a bugaboo to be “frightened!”  
 
“ALLAH” is the source of a “deep reverence,” an “awe” (hashyat) for the people of insight, which is generated through comprehension of their nothingness beside the limitlessness and infinity.  
 
“God” is a ruler and a judge afar-off, assumed to be out-there, which is sculpted in the minds of inefficient people according to their fancies.  
 
“ALLAH,” unlike, is the One and the only Absolute Being, Who created the universes through Hu's own being and Who is being experienced along with Hu's Names (asma) at every particle, with none else to be compared onto Hu...  
 
“God” is a fictitious balooney sculpted in people's minds in accordance with the humankind's perception, adorned and smartened up with various faculties and assumed as a possessor of people’s imaginary ascriptions, at every age and in every community depending on the level of people's understanding.  
 
“ALLAH” is Ahad (the Ultimate Whole), Samed, Lamyalid and Lamyulad.  
 
Well, if so, can there be someone who is authorized to rule IN THE NAME OF “ALLAH” and the DEEN?  
 
 
 
Comments by: momin On: 12/22/2010

 
4.Dear Momin, thanx for above article. I think there is more than what we know about this word ALLAH. I too got few Vague possible ideas for this but would like to wait till things get cleared.  
 
Reason for initiating this question was to know what according to him is motive of human life and what human need to do. Though i have gone thru Huluci's writings some time back wanted to have opinion from all of you. Which might help in parallel discussion for me and others to get familiar with Ellah ( Ideology ) of rational Sufism by great Ahmed Huluci.  
 
Energy and light..............can brother Abdun define these two terms ??  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.  
 
 
 
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 12/22/2010

 
5.Dear Mubashir Syed,  
 
I have read for the first time. My approach to knowledge is unbiased and unprejudiced.  
I pick up knowledge from anywhere , Hinduism, christianity , Buddah , Marxism , Bahai's, Jews, sikhs  
any where. The only thing is it should answer my quest for knowledge , may be a word in that direction.  
I am here on aastana not with fixed thinking , sorry to say, not even on Quran. I will question its  
teachings if they do not appeal to my intellect. You may have been disturbed by this post. But that is how  
the things are.  
 
 
It is good you invited Mr Abdun, an intelligent, knowledgeable person.  
I did not contact you on e-mail just to see your tolerance level, if you can tolerate a person  
like me , I will be soon with you. I do see some truth in Sufism. But not the whole philosophy.  
Life emanated from conscious energy , probably ALLAH who is that energy.  
 
Comments by: momin On: 12/23/2010

 
6.Dear Momin, not sure what made u think i was not comfortable with your post. Trust me i am perfectly alrite with your post.  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 12/23/2010

 
7.Thanks, Mubashir. I find most of the people fixed. so I fear.
Comments by: momin On: 12/23/2010

 
8.Deare Mubashir Syed, Brother Momin: Suppose we consider the Ahmed hulusi’s ideology (wahdat al wojood) “LA ILAHA ILLALLALLAH “means,that, there in no God to warship ONLY ALLAH,this is entirely based upon the philosophy that, every thing in the universe is the part of ALLAH,and reflectins its attribute. So what to do? We are ordered in Quran, to be Muslim / Momin and to establish the welfare state (to take care of human rights). Allama Hulusi represent the islam by philosophical way, taking the help of “ people’s saying” , hadith along with quranic quotation, to establish his view point for DEAN E ISLAM. In short,he is presenting sufi izm in a scientific way( NAAY JAAL LAI PURANEY SHIKARY).
Comments by: moazzam On: 12/23/2010

 
9.Salaam,  
 
"what is the difference between energy and light", light is a form of energy, the real question is what is energy?  
 
This question cannot be answered by conventional physicists, they have no concept of energy, they can tell you where it is derived in transformations of the physical universe, converting from state to state, but not what it is, they know all is energy, time, mass, light, nothing else exists, why do they fail to understand energy?  
 
Conventional physics was hijacked by the Zionist Einstein, almost nothing he propagated was correct, through the heavy promotion in the media and blackmailing of the universities, to establish saint Einstein by the banking mafia, this has prevented the masses understanding physics correctly, preventing them from understanding there is no God clearly and with reason and the true nature of Allah, in so doing this would have removed all religions, which continue to subjugate humanity into slavery, and with this truth of reality so establishing once more the Deen of Islam.  
 
So my perspective is derived from the physical evidence, this means I am convinced of my views through the examination of the physical evidence and concluded my understandings from that foundation, not attempted to make the evidence conform to the religious views prevalent within the poorly translated Qur'an, or accepting of the contrived conventional views of physics that stand in direct opposition to the physical evidence.  
 
I have attempted to explain the physical evidence on my website, the evidence demonstrates a reality that could be viewed as a solid holographic construct, generated from the inside out instant to instant, each atom, (an atom is simply a pattern of energy spinning), generated into existence from pure nothingness instant to instant from the inside out.  
 
This means our reality is manifest from an underlying source, and this is a fluid, this is easy to demonstrate as true as all energies moving through the vacuum travel in waves, they are moving through this virtual fluid. This fluidic space is incredibly dense, 1 cubic centimeter holding more energy than all the visible universe combined, this fact precludes any possibility of compression, as all solid mass is pushing against fluidic space, this can be demonstrated easily, the water 4 miles down in the deepest parts of the oceans is exactly the same volume as it is on the surface, it does not compress, this shows black-holes and big bangs are lies of the establishment. This also means the contrived laws of thermodynamics are backwards, in fact energy is constantly created and destroyed in an open energy exchange.  
 
The universe is not driven by gravity, a force 100's of billions of times weaker than the other forces, travel just 200 miles from the earths surface and you will find no pull of so called gravity, it is a plasma driven universe, plasma makes up around 99.9% of the energy of the universe, yet the establishment almost ignore it, not even teaching it as a state of matter to children, who think that gas, liquid and solid are the states.  
 
So what is energy, how this should be understand is from a personal perspective, within your mind you imagine, you can construct events, places and characters within your imagination, you create them but are not a part of them, your mind uses the energy of your thoughts, imbuing them with smells, colours, taste and texture, in your imagination you create a reality without constraint.  
 
The One generates all realities instant to instant through the imagination of the single consciousness, just as you are not within your imagination, Allah is not within what is imagined, yet is closer than your jugular vein, just as you are closer than the jugular vein of a character you imagine within your own mind.  
 
This means nothing else exists but the thoughts of the single consciousness, drawn out from absolute pure nothingness, instant to instant, so all energy is simply thought, this is why there is no God, and never could be, only the single consciousness exists, this means you could not name Allah, as nothing else exists, you cannot name the source of all, the being of all, the sustaining of all, the emotion of all, the evolution of all, this is why the Qur'an does not direct us to use Allah but to apply the attributes of the single consciousness in reference to the truth of imaginative creation, like the most mercifully or the creator, etc.
Comments by: Abdun On: 12/24/2010

 
10.Dear Participants : Plz don’t run after the “ ALLAH-SELF”. As it is being claimed,that, Allah is sort of energy, and some are trying to establish the theory of Wahdat al wojood(the whole universe is Allah) as well as some are emphasizing that,the consciousness is the only thing ( might be the God-like) and the servant of light are insisting that, Allah is the form of tremendous light. My humble request to all dearest, is, please make your time more valuable by focusing at the commandments of Allah (QURAAN)no else,( in actions,discussions,writings etc) KHUDA K BANDAY TO HAIN HAZARON BANO MAIN PHIRTAY HAIN MARAY MARY, MAIN USKA BANDA BANOGA JISKO KHUDA K BANDON SE PIYAR HOGA.
Comments by: moazzam On: 12/24/2010

 
11.Dear Friends,  
 
I agree with Brother Moazzam that to visualize or comprehend the existence of Allah may be an exercise in futility.  
 
To comprehend HIM in QUANTUM PHYSICS, as our learned Brother Abdun has gone to great lengths to do, is a much more annoying business for us non-science students of divinity.  
 
Allah is imperceptible and everyone has got one’s own image of HIM carved out of one’s own imagination and in relation with one’s own field of specialization.  
 
In the end we must fully agree with Brother Abdun’s last sentence which reads as under :  
 
“this is why the Qur'an does not direct us to use Allah but to apply the attributes of the single consciousness in reference to the truth of imaginative creation, like the most mercifully or the creator, etc.”  
 
In simpler words, we must understand HIS attributes as described in QURAN and strive for inculcating the true spirit of those attributes within our characters on as wide a scale as possible to bring about the required change in the human society..  
Comments by: aurangzaib On: 12/24/2010

 
12.Dear all,  
 
Aurangzaib Said:  
 
"In simpler words, we must understand HIS attributes as described in QURAN and strive for inculcating the true spirit of those attributes WITHIN OUR CHARACTERS on as wide a scale as possible to bring about the required CHANGE IN THE HUMAN SOCIETY... "  
 
DAMON - If we had a society established where the people inculcate the true spirit of Allah's attributes on a wide scale, PERHAPS the results we would get and the atmosphere in that society can give us a better (yet still limited) perception and/or conception of who or what Allah is.  
 
And what better way to bring that society about than what Moazzam and Aurangzaib already pointed out...  
 
Moazzam:  
"My humble request to all dearest, is, please make your time more valuable by focusing at the commandments of Allah (QURAAN)no else,( in actions,discussions,writings etc)"  
 
Damon - I concur with your humble request dear Moazzam Bhai. :-)  
 
God Bless You All.
Comments by: Damon On: 12/24/2010

 
13.Dear Abdun, thanx for your comments being a student of physics I really enjoyed reading your post. Creator ( Who is not God ) must be something with intelligence which existed. Am not using the word God as I think understanding of this word has been so corrupted that rational minds feel uncomfortable using this word. So would like to refer it as Creator but not God.  
 
Energy as you perfectly said doesn’t have any definition yet. And Light is visible range of Electro Magnetic wave. Yes in Meta physics any logic speculation is welcomed to a level of existence of infinite universe and each universe being born with every single act performed by every single person. So by now there could be centillions of universe ( As per Meta Physics ). Even virtual world concept over materialistic world has got its own logistics. ( After a good R&D my perception is its not virtual. I would go along with Stephen Hawkins who got same opinion )  
 
Energy is source of every matter in this universe. Matter and Antimatter created from the process of Annihilation. Energy doesn’t have intelligence its just a resource which is consumed/used to create universe. Energy can be converted from one form to other ( Solar to Electrical, Electrical to mechanical, Kinetic to potential, Mechanical to electrical etc ). So I personally feel Energy cant be creator, in other words creator used energy to create everything.  
 
In Human history no one was able to prove/ disprove existence of creator, many rational minds ( philosophers ) tried in vain. And Quran says no vision can Grasp Creator. With results in hand and a STRONG Message Book recommendation I think it will be futile to put efforts to GRASP this.  
 
Rational speculation doesn’t have one path/route every rational mind is right in his own way as rational logic conjectures got no proof.  
 
Any ways with no intension to offend or defend and having a great comment from a scholarly personality I feel much more mature than I was before reading your comment.  
 
Please let us know what is motive of Human life according to ideology of Ahmed Huluci ? This is what I feel is important and need of the hour.  
 
Note : Just 2 cents with my meager understanding not sure if it makes sense to anyone……  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.  
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 12/25/2010

 
14.Salaam,  
 
I never stated that the thought of Allah had its own intelligence, I stated all reality is simply the thought of Allah, this does not make the thought itself intelligent, intelligence is a gift, degrees of consciousness and so intelligence exist within life, within this simplest of perceived realities at any rate.  
 
Stephen Hawkins is either a man of limited intelligence promoted by the establishment to propagate confusion, or is intensionally propagating non-sense, as it is not difficult to establish the conventional physics now taught is for the most part absolute rubbish.  
 
If you doubt energy is constantly created and destroyed, a simple example is a natural magnet, it endlessly pours out a magnetic field, this is the basis of all electrical generators, it is not the movement of the magnets that generates the electricity, the movement is just the simplest way to transform the magnetic field into an electric current, a solid state converter of a magnetic field would be a much better method.  
 
There are many simple examples that high light the intentional corruptions of physics, take the Earth, the lie is the surface is made of moving plates with subduction forcing the newly formed ocean floor under the old land plates, the ocean floor is between 3 to 6 km thick the old land is around 34km thick, so the ocean floor is supposed to head down about 30km when it hits the land, and people swallow that rubbish without investigation.  
 
The earth expand at the equator approx. 19cm a year, it is a growing planet, but to admit this is the case would make the lies of physics take some explaining, if the earth is indeed growing as every planetary body in the universe is, as the Sun and every Star is, it conflicts with the establishments view, it demonstrates the so called laws of thermodynamic originally created to help people understand how to build stream engines when they were first developed at the beginning of the industrial revolution, are in fact only of use to build stream engines, and not fundamental laws of nature.  
 
Some say it is not possible to understand Allah as anything other than a God, because they do not have the intellectual capacity to understand anything else, this is non-sense, it is inculcate upon you to grasp Allah, the harmony of the universe in its simplicity and grandeur, this is all part of establishing true understanding, reason and so belief.  
 
As for muti-verse ideas, they are an irrational way to justify the mathematical precision of reality as simply random chance, this is required by the establishment to maintain their control of the minds of the masses, as without a reasonable explanation being given or suggested to explain this incredible precision, such degrees of precision it utterly precludes any possibility of random chance, it would be difficult for them to defend their position.  
 
I do not suggest muti-verses in the sense they infer, I suggest dimensional planes, we exist within all eleven dimensional planes simultaneously.
Comments by: Abdun On: 12/25/2010

 
15.Brother Abdun’s comment:  
 
“”Some say it is not possible to understand Allah as anything other than a God, because they do not have the intellectual capacity to understand anything else, this is non-sense, it is inculcate upon you to grasp Allah, the harmony of the universe in its simplicity and grandeur, this is all part of establishing true understanding, reason and so belief. “”  
 
I can only say here that almost all of us Quranists have already “GRASPED ALLAH THROUGH THE HARMONY OF THE UNIVERSE IN ITS SIMPLICITY AND GRANDEUR” and that ‘WE HAVE ALREADY ESTABLISHED OUR TRUE UNDERSTANDING, REASON AND BELIEF” based on the above manifestation of nature. Allah HIMSELF has diverted our attention, through HIS Book, to the nature and its elements to have some concept & understanding of HIS exalted status.  
 
BUT, Lo! All the physics, Quantum physics and the scientific discussions we watched above with awe and wonder, have boiled down to nothing but the same simplistic Quranic concept. Makes me feel grossly mistaken on my notion that…perhaps . . . . we have been discussing the ‘BEING’ or ‘THE NATURE OR THE FORM OF EXISTENCE’ of ALLAH in this thread. That, of course, can’t be comprehended. However, it does seem in the end that we all agree on our concept of ALLAH as described in Quran.  
 
The discussion nevertheless afforded us a deep insight into the visions of our Scientist Brother Abdun. He always adds to our humble knowledge tremendously, though the fields of his expertise might be felt a bit exclusive for most of us. His remarks about Stephen Hawkins were an eye-opener for those who look at the “Great Physicist” in wonder and devotion (myself included). I also admire his boldness when he made shocking (..for a layman like me…) remarks about “Intentional corruptions of physics”. (What? Corruption in science too?). I would sure be thankful for some of his valuable elucidations on these (last) two points, in simpler words, if possible, rather than a highly technical language.  
 
God bless all.  
 
 
Comments by: aurangzaib On: 12/25/2010

 
16.Dear Abdun, can you please give your comments for my last request in previous post.  
 
Please let us know what is motive of Human life according to ideology of Ahmed Huluci ? This is what I feel is important and need of the hour.  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 12/25/2010

 
17.Salaam,  
 
whenever people establish a sovereign structure, it creates corruption, so in the Deen of Islam after two centuries a sovereign structure was established, a religion was the result with the layers of corruption building over the centuries through that influence.  
 
Within science the bankers control the funding, making them the sovereigns through that mechanism, they realized Tesla offered endless free energy from the vacuum, and so need to establish a fiction to prevent the masses from using this source of endless sustenance, through the reduction of the Maxwell equations to around 10% and the establishment of abstract mathematics replacing quaternion mathematics, they made the Zionist Saint Einstein by forcing the universities to teach his rubbish and their media empire to promote it.  
 
Society is equally corrupted by sovereign systems, we suffer variations on a theme in political systems all based upon sovereign structures all of which stand in opposition to the Qur'anic societal structure, these sovereign structures are like a disease throughout society, in the courts, education, business and ownership, this makes all these areas of life full of fictions; sovereigns intentionally deceiving the people for the benefit of themselves.  
 
This is the purpose of a sovereign structure, it drains the fruits of the labour of the subjugated, for the benefit of the sovereign preying upon them.  
 
The evidence against the conventional physics is so vast it would be too much information for the majority, I thought you may watch a short video to highlight just the earth expanding idea, bearing in mind the physical evidence supports this, as I said previously the Earth expands 19cm per year in circumference at the equator, that is a vast amount of new material, this demonstrates an open energy exchange, refuting the closed system promoted by the sovereign establishment, represented by people like Hawking, additionally it demonstrates the lies of geologists who promote the equally stupid idea of subduction, all to maintain the charging for energy which is the underpinning of the banking fraud.  
 
http://www.nealadams.com/nmu.html  
 
I do have a link to Ahmed Huluci's website on my own, I find his approach is from a Sufi perspective, and he brings much of the baggage of Sufism within his website, making it difficult for many to grasp the simple concepts of Islam, the purpose of human life is to establish a society of growth, a fertile place for each individual to develop and expand from state to state, without this it makes it almost impossible for you to succeed, the real question should be what is the ultimate purpose of your creation, when you have passed successfully from this life into reality, what is the purpose?  
 
http://servantofthelight.com/content/view/61/91/  
Comments by: Abdun On: 12/26/2010

 
18.Dear brother Abdun,  
 
Regards, you are an asset on this site. Thank you so much for your valuable posts. I enjoyed real pleasure  
of knowledge in the flight of imagination you took us along. Your thoughts are fulfilling my quest and thirst  
for knowledge. I now understand Allah better than before.  
 
I have opened the link you posted for understanding the purpose of creation. Yes, this should be the  
purpose of creation. But brother it would have been more convincing had you quoted references from  
Quran. I request you to please quote now.
Comments by: momin On: 12/27/2010

 
19.Dear Abdun, thanx for your comment.  
 
Abdun : Concepts of Islam, the purpose of human life is to establish a society of growth, a fertile place for each individual to develop and expand from state to state, without this it makes it almost impossible for you to succeed.  
 
 
Mubashir : This was best part of your comment and which I was trying to understand. Keeping our different schools of thought apart, am really happy to see this motive for which you been working for. Common grounds of Establishing a society of growth ( Salath ) between all ideologies is what is important and needs to be integrated.  
 
Note : I think destination is important than path/route. Best/Easier path might help in peaceful journey but again taking easiest path/route might not be compulsion if you can reach destination.  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.  
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 12/30/2010

 
20.Salaam Mubashir Syed,  
 
I know the way to bring Islam back to the world, it does not require any violence, outrage, hatred or conflict, but it does require incredibly brave Muslims, because even though you would be doing nothing wrong, you will be persecuted, the modern world is so far from Islam to show its brilliance once more would blind most, making them confused and aggressive.  
It cannot be done in isolation, it must be demanded not begged for, it must be taken not given, it must be an act of purpose with knowledge and reason.  
If you would like me to explain the first step to the last I would be happy too, if you are a brave Muslim?  
Comments by: Abdun On: 12/31/2010

 
21.Dear Abdun, please go ahead we are listening..................  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 12/31/2010

 
22.Salaam Mubashir Syed,  
 
well the first thing would be to read the four models that form the Bayta (a structure to shelter in) of society:  
Allodial ownership  
Polycentric community  
Human energy economics  
Common law  
 
What I write next may not make sense if you do not understand the four models first.  
 
The first practical step is to establish a pure contract trust, and invest yourself into a Islamic community contract, this has two benefits, firstly it binds you to common law, removing any other form of law, common law or the law of the land as its also known is not used by the state, as it removes all their authority, they apply admiralty law and corporate law, both are fictions of legislation, under their legal systems you must demand common law or else you get the fictions of legislation. The second benefit is to establish the correct Islamic parameters as detailed within the Qur'an.  
 
I have written an Islamic community contract if any one wish to have a read.  
 
The next step is to create a surety system, binding yourself to other living human beings in surety, this is also directed within the Qur'an, surety means a binding rope, I have written an explanation of the surety system.  
 
The next step is to establish a repository, take all the fiat money within the contracting community members and deposit it, in their accounts, within the repository, who convert the fiat money into pure silver, I have written an explanation of the repository system on my website.  
 
The next step is to take the property of the members and convert it to allodial title, ignoring the documents of the fiction of estate manufactured by the state as worthless, the title is then within the domain of common law and inalienable, held within the confines of the trust contract.  
 
The next step is to establish a moot (assembly of peers) and Rex (to put right) structure within the community.  
 
The next step is to remove the sovereign business practices now dominant and establish Islamic business models, as detailed on my website.  
 
The next step is to create contracted insurance systems to cover car, medical, house, whatever insurance is required, as detailed in the example on my website.  
 
This is the start of the re-establishment of Islam.  
Comments by: Abdun On: 12/31/2010

 
23.Dear Abdun,  
 
Can you explain how this can be accomplished without violence or conflict? The second one disregards federal legislation in favor of Quranic law here comes the violence and conflict.  
 
By the way, I for one do not shy away from the thought of violence and conflict. FEAR OF DEATH and LOVE OF FREEDOM cannot occupy the same cerebral space (in my opinion). And according to my CURRENT understanding of 2:256 we ARE to disregard federal (i.e. "man made") law in favor of the Constitution of The Quran.  
 
God Bless You,  
Damon.
Comments by: Damon On: 12/31/2010

 
24.Salaam Damon,  
the violence would be from the state not from the Muslim, the law would not be broken, the system of law must be understood as a process, it is not in legislation like a legal expert you need to become knowledgeable but in the process of law itself.  
For example how you refer to yourself in law has a huge bearing, a 'person' in law has the meaning of an 'actors mask', they wish to deal with you in their courts as a fiction of law.  
 
The term Mr or Mrs infers you are a slave and subservient to the state, you must never accept or acknowledge that title in law, but the term Master, or Mistress for a women, they have created terms in law that trap the ignorant.  
 
I recommend you have a read of the four models on my website.
Comments by: Abdun On: 12/31/2010

 
25.Salaam;  
 
Brother Abdun;  
Do you think that practical and peaceful implementation of Islam is a possibility in today's world?  
How and where do you expect this system to be implemented and run smoothly?  
What about the system that was implemented during the time of Prophet Muhammad (S) and the respected caliphs? Why it got completely dominated by negative forces within few decades?  
 
I have already posted this as a reply to the following post by brother Naeem Sheikh;  
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=870#COM3395  
 
However, considering the relevance of the topic I would like to share my post on this thread as well.  
 
Here is my post and I'll be obliged to have a reply;  
 
Do you think me, you or anyone else can have a better trust in Quran or a better understanding of it than our prophet (S) and respected companions had? Who can deny the sincerity, wisdom and knowledge of prophet(S) and his companions. The were the ones who preserved every single word of Quran in an effective way and they were the ones who implemented Islam in it's true form. However it is a fact that the system they implemented, got completely dominated by evil forces within 3 or 4 decades and was changed into something totally different.  
Relying on history is quite important in order to understand why this system couldn't survive against the evil forces.  
 
What could possibly be the reason?  
 
Was it that no effective measures were taken during those times to prevent conspiracies?  
Or  
Was it that the system itself had no tendencies to stand against such odds?  
 
I am quite sure that the situation is much more difficult today coz we are living in a world totally dominated by Jesuits and Jewish (Zionist) forces who will strongly oppose any attempt to implement a system which denies slavery and subjugation. These forces have created a system based on usury and fiat money which is in total control of world's economy.  
How can we expect to fight against such a system without knowing their strength and our weakness?  
Without analyzing history, one cannot improve the present and cannot guarantee a secure future.
Comments by: Junaid On: 12/31/2010

 
26.Salaam Junaid,  
the history you are mentioning is unlikely to be true, its easy to establish a lie and if you dominate a society as sovereign over time the lies becomes the history.  
 
I have research the history of Albion, about 100 years after Muhammad's death all four societal models I explain on my website existed from around 750 to 1066, thats was not a few decades, they functioned perfectly, you should read the history essay I've written, called Rex Offa.
Comments by: Abdun On: 12/31/2010

 
27.Salaam;  
Brother Abdun, I have not mentioned any event from history. What I am referring to, is a simple fact that Islamic society was taken over and completely dominated by evil forces few decades after the time of Prophet(S) and 4 caliphs. If you think that is not the case, please provide an example that Islam continued in it's true form even after Hazrat Ali(R).  
According to your analysis, Islam was functional during the times of Umayyad and Abbasids. If that is true, it contradicts all the research I have done so far. According to what I have come to know, hadits were introduced during Umayyad Era while books of hadits were compiled and Islamic history was forged during the times of Abbasids by Tabari bin Rustam and later on by Bukhari, Muslim and others. This was done under supervision and with total support of Abbasid Kings. I have read some material written by Tabari which is nowhere near to what we call true Islam.  
All these hadith based concepts, all the rituals, myths and controversies were created by Tabari and few others during 9th century. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything beyond that period, hence I am not sure whether this corruption took place before Tabari.  
Now my question is that if Umayyads were sincere, why they introducedcollection of hadits as a practice which was never allowed during the time of Prophet(S) and the four caliphs? Why caliphate is considered legitimate until the time Hazrat Ali and why not after that period?  
 
Note: Let's assume that your analysis is true and that Abbasid Era was 100% a true Islamic era. Why only till 1066? Why the most perfect system lasted for two centuries only?  
Comments by: Junaid On: 12/31/2010

 
28.  
Very constructive criticism by brother Junaid. I am learning a lot from this fruitful discussion.  
Thanks both of you (brother Abdun and Junaid). I am following you.
Comments by: momin On: 12/31/2010

 
29.Salaam Junaid,  
 
are you not grasping the term history, if you are stating something happened shortly after the establishment of Islamic society, that would be 14 centuries ago, I am pretty certain that would be history. What I'm saying is that the history is more than likely a pack of carefully constructed lies, as is most history, what you need to do is look at the physical evidence that remains that is firmly established as from that point in history (this is systematically destroyed to prevent the lies becoming exposed), and disregard the material that was written without support centuries afterwards (this is created to authenticate the lies).  
 
Now if you further read my previous post I recommend you read the history posted on my website, and then you would be fully informed of the reasons for the removal, who was responsible and how it was achieved within Albion, the systems there would have been a copy of the original systems established by Muhammad, as little has been left of the Arabic histories to support any conclusions, we are left to look further afield and examine copies of the original model.
Comments by: Abdun On: 12/31/2010

 
30.Salaam;  
Brother Abdun, I am talking about a period between (800CE to 900CE) which is almost 1100 to 1200 years ago. You said anything that happened 1400 years ago is history. What about events that took place 1200 years ago? If it is not history, what else should I call it?  
 
Let me provide you some references OR (Physical evidences);  
 
Following are the books of history and hadith compiled by various Imams during the above mentioned period;  
(Reference: Wikipedia and Muqam e Hadith by G.A. Perwez)  
 
Tareekhil Umam Wal Mulook by Imam Tabari (around 870)  
Sahih Bukhari, collected by Imam Bukhari (d. 870),  
Sahih Muslim, collected by Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875),  
Sunan al-Sughra, collected by al-Nasa'i (d. 915)  
Sunan Abu Dawood, collected by Abu Dawood (d. 888)  
Jami al-Tirmidhi, collected by al-Tirmidhi (d. 892)  
Sunan ibn Majah, collected by Ibn Majah (d. 887)  
 
These were the books that changed every concept of deen to a religion based on myths and dogmas.  
(Just to mention that there is no reason not to accept the work done by G.A.Perwez in order to collect these references).  
 
Obviously these books were compiled during the lifetime of the above mentioned Imams and all of them died before 900 CE. (A period under Abbasid Kings)  
 
These Imams Imams enjoyed total support from Abbasid kings and if Islam was being practiced in it's true form, such work would've never be allowed to exist. This is clear evidence that Islamic concepts were changed as a result of various conspiracies during the period (800 to 850) or (200 to 250) AH.  
 
Going into some more details, work from Ibn Zubayr and al-Zuhri (the first historian)700-750 CE is not available anywhere. However works from Ibn Ishaq ) - Sirah Rasul Allah (d. 761) and Abi Mikhnaf - Maqtal al-Husain (d. 774) is still on record.  
I am sure this work by no means reflects a true Islamic concept and this was done during the period of (700 to 750) CE.  
All these references are available and the books are still on record. Everyone can understand that compilation of these books was not possible under a true Islamic era and that this conspiracy of distortion of history was carried out quite successfully during Umayyad and Abbasid periods (700 CE onwards).  
 
Now tell me how can you say that Islam was being practiced in it's true form till 1066?  
 
Comments by: Junaid On: 12/31/2010

 
31.Salaam Junaid,  
you seem to be intensionally obtuse, for what reason I have no idea, I am clear what you are talking of is historical events, it matters not if they happened last year or at the beginning of the universe.  
 
Now tell me how can you say that Islam was being practiced in it's true form till 1066? You say. I keep telling you repeatedly, read the ESSAY ON THE WEBSITE IF YOU WISH TO KNOW!
Comments by: Abdun On: 1/1/2011

 
32.Salaam;  
Respected Brother Abdun,  
I may seem to be obtuse but this is not intentional. I'll be obliged if you could help me to understand the linkage between Islamic state that existed during Abbasid Era and the history of Albion (British Islands of today). I would also like to request you to discuss history of Islam without linking it to British history.  
Also to mention that I have gone through every single article posted on your website including Rex offa.  
Your work is marvelous and I have learned a lot from it, but unfortunately I do have a disagreement regarding the way you are trying to link history of Islam with history of Albion (Modern British Islands) which is thousands of miles away from Baghdad. (I couldn't see any specific reference as such in order to confirm whatever you have mentioned).  
In fact you have mentioned on your website that Gold coins minted by Rex in (757-796 C.E.) were the simulation in general design, to the Muslim Mancus Dinar in circulation during the eighth century.  
I can see this printed on the coins;  
La ILaha ILLalLLah Muhammad ur Rasool ULLah.  
Tell me isn't this what Mullah of today consider as the base of Iman? (First Kalma)  
You yourself have admitted that the term was common during eighth century. Please compare this term with your article "Sovereignty of Allah Alone". Isn't it a confirmation that the evil forces have already taken over concepts of true Islam and replaced them with Islam based on Hadiths.  
 
I have already provided the dates when the books of Hadiths were compiled but you have not accepted or rejected these dates yet. (I would request you to Please do so).  
 
Having said that, Please allow me to share my understanding that those who believe in verses (3:18-84) from Quran will never consider saying "La ILaha ILLalLLah Muhammad ur Rasool ULLah." as the basis of their faith.  
A true Muslim would respect Muhammad(S) as Apostle of Allah and will have faith on him, but he/she would never include Muhammad(S) in Sovereignty of Allah and will not give him preference over other apostles. (3:79-63:01)  
 
Now please consider me obtuse and totally blunt and kindly enlighten me with your views regarding history of Islam. I'll be obliged if you could write something here instead of asking me again and again to read what you have written on your website coz I am unable to get the required relevant information and my questions are still unanswered even after reading Rex Offa at "Servant of Light."  
Comments by: Junaid On: 1/1/2011

 
33.Salaam Junaid,  
 
so your questions are about history after all, a Rex was not a king or sovereign but an aspect of the natural law system as I explain in the essay, so many people minted coins, as only the requirement to weight and purity constrained manufacture, Offa put his name on the coin so we can be fairly sure he was the one who had the coins minted in gold with the inscriptions, but most coins were of silver and had pictures of animals on them.  
 
Things do corrupt very quickly, as people love to honour then idolise others of the past, especially if they have a powerful influence upon their lives, as Muhammad. The Arabic text a hundred years after Muhammad's death, being the time of Offa, would have been grasped in its original meanings, so far clearer, easier to grasp and understood by the Arabic reading people, they could convey the understandings without confusions, this is clear from the fast and dramatic spread of the societal systems that swept across the world until the invention of hadith, the corruption of grammar, and the re-installing of monarchs.  
 
It was not the religion of Islam we suffer today that Offa established it was only the Salat within the Qur'an, the act of Dua and the establishment of Bayta, so the following closely the guidance, acting physically to establish those guiding systems and establishing a structure to dwell within of society.  
 
I have continued to expand and improve the essay on Rex Offa, it would depend how long ago you read it to whether you have all the information so far, I will continue to improve the essay as I investigate further.  
 
History is almost completely lies, this is the problem in investigating it, to uncover what truly happened is very difficult indeed, and as you look the picture begins to change, if a lie is maintained for long enough, all the physical evidence is destroyed and you control the libraries and education systems, the lies become facts fairly quickly. How do we discover the truth then, we can only look at the objects that we are confident came from that point in history, we investigate the source of the claims of documents, and see who wrote them, and when, and who for, so in England almost all documents are written after 1066 so these fabrications are used to create a false history of events before 1066.  
 
The Arabs must have taken part in the intensional perversion of Islam, it cannot be just the Persians who worked against it, as the key holders of the understanding of the text were the Arabs, it seems clear the hadith books did not exist until at least 200 years or more after the death of Muhammad, as the physical evidence supports this, so we can happily disregard all and every word of hadith as worthless, as they were created with the soul purpose of removing Islam.  
 
As for the coin of Offa making mention of Muhammad in the text, it may have simply been a reference to the source of the text of Islam in its original intent, and this has been mis-understood as a foundation of Islam, what is written by well intentioned people can often become confused by those who inherit it, as you point out Allah is the only sovereign and no one not even Muhammad can be your sovereign.  
 
The facts of Albion remain of interest, they have worked hard to remove the truth, as they have done in Spain and Portugal, and it is these histories that need to be uncovered, as the Arabs themselves perverted Islam, while the Albic, Spanish and Portuguese were subjugated and murdered, this means to investigate the Arabs would be pointless, they would not have left anything of value, while the peoples of Europe who existed as Muslim had no intent to conceal only those subjugating them had, it is much harder to conceal truth if you are imposing upon people, and much easier if the people are imposing it upon themselves.
Comments by: Abdun On: 1/1/2011

 
34.Salaam;  
 
Brother Abdun, You said;  
(The Arabs must have taken part in the intensional perversion of Islam, it cannot be just the Persians who worked against it, as the key holders of the understanding of the text were the Arabs, it seems clear the hadith books did not exist until at least 200 years or more after the death of Muhammad, as the physical evidence supports this,)  
 
I totally agree with you on this point. In fact I always had a feeling that it can't be those Persian Imams alone who could damage the true image of Islam. A lot of Jewish, Christians and Zoroastrians were involved in the conspiracy but no one could have succeeded without an intentional or unintentional support by Arabs.  
 
We can't say that no there was no resistance though. A group who was given the name (Muta'zils) during Umayyad and specially Abassid Era showed some resistance. According to what I have learned so far, these were the people who rejected all the innovations by Imams during 8th and 9th century and were strictly following Quran. A Strong force was used against these (Muta'zils) and they were mass-murdered during Abbasid era. They were declared Kafir and thousands of these people were killed brutally. However they had sympathies of all the educated Muslim classes during those times.  
 
This is very simple actually, coz if we talk about what we have learned so far in general public and specially in front of Mullahs, we will face the same kind of treatment I guess :)  
 
Brother Abdun, Thanks for enlightening me with your opinion and I do hope that this discussion continues in future.  
I would request you to please share with me any information you'll get during your research in this regard.
Comments by: Junaid On: 1/1/2011

 
35.Dear Brothers Junaid and Naeem,  
 
In response to Brother Junaid's question, some reflections about why the “Righteous System” failed within “a few decades”.  
 
The System having been developed within the boundaries of a limited environment of Madinah, produced a perhaps “not-so-large number” of noble characters. We may call them the Quranic intelligentsia - - the leaders. (When I say “not-so-large number”, I am talking in the perspective of those widespread regions encompassing three continents, whose great responsibility of governance those “leaders” were soon going to shoulder). The acquisition of vast territories and huge populations, of course through an astoundingly rapid expansion process, soon scattered that Elite Group far and wide and, consequently, they were soon consumed in warfare and in the endless problems associated with it, leaving behind a vacuum of real Quranist pioneers.  
 
Meanwhile, the old Quraishi Chieftains of Bani Umayyad, and their younger generations, most of whom remained enemies and accepted Islam only at the end of the Pioneer’s two decades long struggle, and only…. when…. on the occasion of Makka victory, they found no alternative but to surrender,,,,,,,, lay in waiting for their chances to regain power and authority. Some of them were, later on, granted high offices as generals and as governors of territories and provinces during the eras of Hazrat Omar and Hazrat Othman.  
 
The most influential ones among them were Marwan bin Al-Hakam (d.65 AH/686 AD) Chief Assistant, confidante and first cousin of Caliph Othman, and Amir Mu’awiya (d.60 AH/679 AD) the powerful Governor of Syria (including Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, parts of present Turkey, etc.) headquartered in Damascus. Both of them embraced Islam just at the time of Makkah victory and spent a negligible time in the company of my Lord pbuh who was already in the last days of his blessed life. On no account they could have grasped the true spirit of Islam.  
 
I think rest of the dark episode is clear to us all, and need not be detailed here, since those were the above-named gentlemen who founded the Banu Umayyad dynasty of autocratic rulers in Damascus, in defiance of the continuous chain of Rashid Caliphate in Hijaz.  
 
Sometimes I feel that the answer as to Why we can’t discover the real causes of the failure of Quranic System so soon, lies mainly into our unwillingness to make “some personalities” the target of our investigation and research. Personality worship -- or -- our unqualified reverence for some prominent people, does obstruct our way to a merciless probe that is actually needed to ascertain the truth.  
 
This is a theory highlighted by several historical chapters. Some more research might bring into light some more results too. We actually can’t get rid of ImamTabari (d.310 AH) howsoever we may try. We unfortunately don’t have another platform to stand upon insofar as our early HISTORY is concerned. The fact remains that Tabari based his history on the existing authentic sources of the time which were written by Ibn-e-Ishaq, Waqidi, Abi Makhnaf, Kalabi, Suddi, Hisham bin Kalabi and Saif bin Omar etc. All his life he copied the historical manuscripts of aforementioned writers, while wandering around Ray, Basrah, Fastaat, Egypt and Baghdad, and when he started compiling his monumental project in Baghdad in 290 AH, he was unable to complete the task in the remaining 20 years of his life.  
Some of his unknown protégés completed his work after his death.  
 
Brother Abdun's participation in this thread is a source of enlightenment. He deals with some uniques aspects of our history by linking it with his remarkable work of Rex Offa/Albion. I read his inputs very minutely and keep learning.  
 
You wrote about Mo'tazillahs in your last mail and about the resistance they offered. Mo'tazillahs emerged to fame during Abbaside period because they happened to enjoy the ideological allegiance of three successive Abbaside Caliphs, Mamoon, Mo'tasim and Wasiq and during this period they were very cruel to their opponents. Caliph Mutawakkal did not support their ideology and they lost Royal Sponsorship; and soon receded into oblivion.  
They too had some irrational beliefs and convictions and were masters in the art of verbal logic (علم الکلام ).  
 
However, more prominent were the KHAARJIS, who are recognized as ultra-fundamentalist Quranists. They waged a war spanning more than a century against the corrupt autocratic regimes of Umayyads and Abbasids. Of course, the history portrayed them as mutineers and terrorists, which they absolutely were not.  
 
Thanks.
Comments by: aurangzaib On: 1/1/2011

 
36.Dear Aurangzaib! you quoted that "Sometimes I feel that the answer as to Why we can’t discover the real cause of the failure of Quranic System so soon " ................I don't believe in your / historian's inference of "the failure of Quranic System sooner or later once it is established" , by any reason as per verses 61/8-9. There might be failure of nations those left the qura'n their behind, as per verse 25/30. Don’t run after the so called Muslim Ummah ,also need not to explore the heap of the ash. See the real Muslims and their states around you at the globe. The Qura'nic system is still being functioned with its full success (although having room to make it better).Plz not to be narrowed in your vision to title them THE MUSLIM, no matter they holed physically the book written in arabic text (quran) in their hands or not . Also dare to drop the said title from the people to whom qura'n doesn't recognize as a MUSLIM.
Comments by: naeem sheikh On: 1/2/2011

 
37.Salaam;  
Brother Naeem, I don't know why I can't see any Real Muslim states on the globe right now. Perhaps there is a fault in my vision or my understanding. May be I misunderstood the message of Quran and True Islam. I'll be obliged if you could educate me and point out few of these Muslim states;  
 
Quote: (See the real Muslims and their states around you at the globe. The Qura'nic system is still being functioned with its full success) by naeem sheikh  
 
Let me share with you what Quran says about a Muslim state and then I would request you to please point out few of those states on the globe.  
 
Muslim states according to Quran;  
 
1: A society having faith in ownership and sovereignty of the creator and the sustainer. No government or individual claims to be sovereign.(2:255, 3:18-180, 5:44, 17:111, 18:14, 27:26)  
2: A state where no person or corporation claims ownership of Land and natural resources and everyone has open access to invest labor and earn. (2:107-115-284, 6:12-164, 6:165, 18:14, 36:83, 55:10-11-12)  
3: A state where Human labor is the primary means of generation of wealth. Where concept of usury (earning more than the labor invested) and (earning through capital investment of wealth based on time factor) is totally discouraged. (2:275-276-278-279, 3:130, 4:161, 8:65-66, 13:11, 17:19, 22:55-56, 53:24-39-40-41)  
4: A state where every individual contributes in growth and development with free will and without being forced to pay anything in form of tax. (2:43-219-215-273-277, 3:134-180, 4:114, 5:45, 7:156, 9:60-111, 22:41-78)  
5: A state where people are free to choose their representatives to serve and not to rule. Where decisions are made with mutual consent (involving every individual member of the society) ( 2:38-39, 3:79, 4:59-65, 5:48, 5:44, 6:57, 9:75, 22:41, 24:55-62, 28:59, 42:38, 49:13, 55:07-08)  
6: A state where every single individual enjoy total freedom in terms of thoughts and deeds. (1:04, 2:134, 6:104-164, 15:35, 17:15, 25:82, 37:20, 38:78, 53:38)  
7: A state where justice is provided to every individual and no one is above the law. (2:213, 4:105, 5:44 to 49, 6:114-152, 13:43, 55:08)  
 
I would like to add here that the law defined by western world which includes UN security council always tends to favor the strong and powerful nations. (Different rules for different nations)  
Also to be noted that after World war 2, every country has signed a monetary policy designed by Zionist bankers (Bretton Woods conference) which states that the world's economy will be based on fiat money. The so called democratic system is doing nothing but transferring wealth and power in few hands and promoting usury as the basic means of earning wealth. (A very poor system of distribution of wealth which will end up no where)  
 
After going through all the above mentioned details, I would now request you to kindly point out the Muslim states where Quran is still being followed.  
 
 
Comments by: Junaid On: 1/2/2011

 
38.Salaam;  
 
Brother Aurangzeb, there is a lot of confusion regarding the terms Mu'tazili and Kharijites and I have seen different views from different scholars. I am not sure which information is correct and which is not.  
Even the Wikipedia provides controversial information for both;  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu'tazili  
(Please read the Historical background of the Origin of Mu'tazilis)  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharijites  
(Please read the definition of Kharijites)  
 
Accurate information about these two might give the answer to the following question posted above;  
 
Why the system couldn't survive against the evil forces? What could possibly be the reason?  
 
Was it that no effective measures were taken during those times to prevent conspiracies?  
Or  
Was it that the system itself had no tendencies to stand against such odds?  
 
I would request you to please help me and provide some references to support your views about Mu'tailis and Kharijites. I'll be obliged to have your reply.
Comments by: Junaid On: 1/2/2011

 
39.Dear Brother Naeem,  
 
You have taken up the matter of early Muslim history into a totally different perspective. What we are discussing is not what you have aimed at.  
Brother Junaid's comment is in the proper parameters of our discussion. I will post my reply after a careful study of the links he has kindly provided.  
History is a fascinating subject. We are discussing our early history Brother, not the hypothetical question of how many Muslim states are existing in our present times and to what extent they are Muslims.... or are they not?  
 
Thank you.
Comments by: aurangzaib On: 1/2/2011

 
40.Dear Junaid,Brother Aurangzaib ! Are you agree to the 1st part of my reply?? As for as 2nd part is concerns, it is being reflected from your reply that, you people are not ready to give some room for the west in your heart ,same like as usual so called Muslim do.My dears love with the Momins / Muslims where ever they may be.There is nothing perfect /ideal whether a state governess or individual character,as there is always room for the betterment of a system.We believe that certainly , there will be YOUM ASSAA' /YOUM AL QIYAMA /YOUM ADDEEN (as we are assured by the qura'n) eg 3/25, but don't know the era (WA YASALOONAKA UNISSAATI AYYANA MURSAHA FIMA ANTA MIN ZIKRAHA, ILA RABBIKA MUNTAHAHA)..............Dear Junaid ! I appreciate your feelings and analytic way of expressing your inference,but verses quoted in your post in clause "1--4" need to be elaborated in the support of establishing the ownership rights as per your claim. #2 your last paragraph and the verses quoted in clause "3" related to the ECONOMIC / BANKING SYSTEM vs QURA'N,therefore need to be elaborated. #3 The verses quoted in the clauses 5--7are being implemented ,some where partially but progressive day by day(with room of corrections).Please over look the short comings in proper implementation of their constitutional laws in the society due to the individual charector.
Comments by: naeem sheikh On: 1/2/2011

 
41.Salaam;  
 
Brother Naeem, I totally agree with your statement regarding nations who left Quran and started following man made system (hadith). I won't use the term (Muslim) for these countries coz both you and me know that they are the followers of Mullah and not Quran. These nations are facing the consequences and they deserve all the suffering. However, this doesn't mean that the nations leading in the fields of science and technology and those who are controlling world's economy are following the right path.  
 
In order to understand what I am trying to say, I would request you to please go through the following links; (I have arranged the sequence for your convenience)  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_Conference  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Bernanke  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Goldman  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_C._Dudley  
 
I am sure these links will give you a proper understanding about what the western world is doing.  
I would also request you to please go through the articles posted on Brother Abdun Nur's website.  
http://servantofthelight.com/content/section/2/44/  
 
According to your statement, the so called Muslims are not ready to give some room for west and so do we. All I can say is that I am not rejecting west for the sake of rejection. I have done enough research on the system being followed by them and I can't see any progress there. How many shortcomings do you want me to overlook!  
 
 
 
Comments by: Junaid On: 1/2/2011

 
42. Brother Aurangzaib ! As you said that "You have taken up the matter of early Muslim history into a totally different perspective " Dear sir, it is astonishing that, you(the quranist) labeled “the MUSLIM HISTORY to the " Arab's history in original" as in Arab countries the same is called ARAB HISTORY in their educational curricula. I don’t believe in the so called Muslims history,(due to the material written inside). The one paragraph from your post is being reproduced as under. "" We actually can’t get rid of ImamTabari (d.310 AH) howsoever we may try. We unfortunately don’t have another platform to stand upon insofar as our early HISTORY is concerned. The fact remains that Tabari based his history on the existing authentic sources of the time which were written by Ibn-e-Ishaq, Waqidi, Abi Makhnaf, Kalabi, Suddi, Hisham bin Kalabi and Saif bin Omar etc. All his life he copied the historical manuscripts of aforementioned writers, while wandering around Ray, Basrah, Fastaat, Egypt and Baghdad, and when he started compiling his monumental project in Baghdad in 290 AH, he was unable to complete the task in the remaining 20 years of his life.  
Some of his unknown protégés completed his work after his death"" Is this deserve the label " MUSLIM HISTORY".  
Britain ruled the world, would you call it Christian history because the rulers were observing the Christian religion??  
 
Comments by: naeem sheikh On: 1/3/2011

 
43.Brother Naeem,  
 
Come on, let us agree that this HISTORY is the HISTORY OF THOSE WHO CALLED THEMSELVES MUSLIMS.  
O.K.?  
 
You know what? Your objection was justified had I called it ISLAMIC HISTORY ! No friend?  
 
BECAUSE there is no ISLAMIC STATE or ISLAMIC GOVERNMENT starting , say, 40 AH.  
 
When I call it MUSLIM History, I actually mean the same as you do. Muslim History means not ISLAMIC HISTORY, but the History of those calling themselves OR KNOWN BY THE NAME, MUSLIMS. Do you agree now?  
 
BUT correct yourself also Brother. Don't call it ARAB history. Arabs were far outnumbered soon after 40 AH. It was since then a mixture or amalgamation of countless ethnic majorities that called themselves Muslims. Except two tribes of YEMENI and MADHARI origin, all the masses outside of Arabian Peninsula, were non-Arabs.  
Comments by: aurangzaib On: 1/3/2011

 
44.Dear Brother Junaid,  
 
Both links from Wikipedia did solve the problem and rescued me from writing a lot of historical explanation. This is all what is known about Mo’tazilahs, and the same is narrated in more detail in the Book, Mo’tazila Ki Tareekh by Zohdi (زہدی جاراللہ ) Jaarallah, Egyptian, published by Misaal Publishing, Habib Bank Building Chauk, Urdu Bazar, Lahore.  
 
Now the confusion remains whether they were the earliest “rationalist Quranists” or not; or whether or not we modern Quranists can regard them as our rightful ancestors/pioneers. So, I would translate a paragraph from Ustaad Allama Aslam Jairaajpuri for your free assessment in order to arrive at your final decision about that sect.  
 
The furor caused by Mo’tazillahs on the point of Khalq-e-Quran (Quran: Created or Eternal?), which had shaken not only the Ummat but the Abbaside Empire as well, was created just due to philosophical exaggeration and lack of Quranic understanding. Mo’tazillah were of the view that to declare Quran “not Created” would give it the status of “Eternal”, and that would cause multiplicity of “Eternals”. Therefore, it would be a polytheistic belief. On the other side, Mohaddaseen also did not possess clear evidence/arguments to prove that Quran was “un-created” (ghayir Makhlooq) to pacify the Mo’tazillahs. The result was that prejudice developed between the two factions and it became a big issue. Had they deliberated in Quran, the puzzle would have easily been solved and no hadith/rivayat would require to be consulted.  
 
On other issues too, Mo’tazillah mis-used or mis-interpreted Quranic texts to justify their own particular convictions. This very step by them was in the wrong direction. They selected abstract and symbolic (allegorical) realities as the subject of their debates and thus emphasized Allah’s person (existence), attributes, hell and paradise, the weightage/scale of deeds, etc. and tried to prove that Allah’s Person was independent of His attributes. They declared this principle as their first element of faith as “Tauheed”. From here ensued the controversy of Khulq-e-Quran that eventually caused huge loss of life.  
 
About Kharjis, again you have the details. It doesn’t however tell that they fought against the autocratic, dynastic, coercive Arab regimes till the period of Haroon al-Rasheed, the Abbaside, around the end of 2nd century AH. Their slogan was ان الحکم الا للہ . Fierce fighters, ultra fundamentalists, extremists, whatever history may call them, still there is a lot of scope to know who they actually were. The history, as usual, goes in favor of the Rulers, and Kharjis are portrayed as mutineers, rebels, etc. But looking at their convictions and disregarding the biased exaggerations fabricated against them, also looking at their perseverance, steadfastness, bravery and prolonged sacrifices, they seem to be the model Quranic Jihadis of that time. That’s how I personally think about them. We terribly need to know more about them.  
 
As for the causes of too quick failure of Quranic system, I have tried to explain my history-based hypothesis in the earlier comment. Perhaps you like to re-read that paragraph and then explain your points of difference, or an alternate theory, if any.  
 
God bless you.  
Comments by: aurangzaib On: 1/3/2011

 
45.Salaam;  
 
Brother Aurangzaib, You said;  
(Now the confusion remains whether they were the earliest “rationalist Quranists” or not; or whether or not we modern Quranists can regard them as our rightful ancestors/pioneers.)  
 
My reply:  
I would say that my heart has become too rigid to believe and accept anything from history after seeing so much distortion.  
Regardless of the fact whether they were earliest "rationalist Quranists" or not, we should not consider them or anyone else as our ancestors or pioneers.  
Let me share my understanding for the term "Quranists" (Already posted as a reply to Brother naeem;  
 
Who are Quranists?  
- Who believe that Quran is a book of guidance which contains everything and nothing is missing (16:89)  
- People who are trying to explore the true message of Quran with a clear state of mind (56:79).  
-Those who don't believe in following certain personalities in order to interpret the meanings (10:35).  
- Men / women who believe in using their sense / reason (8:22).  
- Persons who are not following blindly (17:36).  
- A community trying to hold together to the bond of Allah and not following any sect or Fiqha. (3:103)  
- A group trying to follow Islam as deen and not madhab (5:03)  
- A minority not following what majority believes or does (6:116)  
- Sensible persons who know that preists and Mullahs bar people from right path of Allah (9:34)  
 
You said: (I have tried to explain my history-based hypothesis in the earlier comment. Perhaps you like to re-read that paragraph and then explain your points of difference, or an alternate theory, if any.)  
 
Let me share my comments one by one;  
You wrote;  
(The System having been developed within the boundaries of a limited environment of Madinah, produced a perhaps “not-so-large number” of noble characters. We may call them the Quranic intelligentsia - - the leaders. When I say “not-so-large number”, I am talking in the perspective of those widespread regions encompassing three continents, whose great responsibility of governance those “leaders” were soon going to shoulder. )  
 
My reply:  
As per my understanding, Quran was revealed for the whole world and thats why the term "mankind" is used to address people. Who can deny the intelligence and abilities of Mohammad (S) and his great companions?  
If those people were unable to produce enough noble characters or Quranic intelligentsia to handle comparatively a small portion of this world, how can we expect this to happen now? Do you think enough intelligentsia can be produced to handle the whole world or "mankind" in future? If not then how this system will be implemented throughout?  
 
You said:  
(Meanwhile, the old Quraishi Chieftains of Bani Umayyad, and their younger generations, most of whom remained enemies and accepted Islam only at the end of the Pioneer’s two decades long struggle, and only…. when…. on the occasion of Makka victory, they found no alternative but to surrender,,,,,,,, lay in waiting for their chances to regain power and authority. Some of them were, later on, granted high offices as generals and as governors of territories and provinces during the eras of Hazrat Omar and Hazrat Othman. )  
 
My reply:  
Let me share the following verses;  
 
(8:74) Those who believed and emigrated, and strove in the cause of Allah, and those who hosted them and supported them, are True believers. For them is protection of forgiveness and honorable provision. (QXP)  
(8:75) And those who followed them in belief, and left their homes, and strove along with you, they are of you. Remember that blood relatives have certain special rights and obligations over each other according to  
Allah's Ordinance. They should be the first ones to help each other. Surely, God is Knower of all things. (QXP)  
(9:100) The foremost among the emigrants and the helpers, as well as those who followed them in noble deeds: Allah’s will is in harmony with them and their will in harmony with Him. He has made ready for them  
the evergreen Gardens, wherein they will abide eternally. This is the Supreme Triumph. (QXP)  
 
After going through these verses, I do believe that Hazrat Othman(R) and Hazrat Omar(R) couldn't have appointed wrong people as Generals or governors. (However this is only my assumption and I may be wrong here).  
These verses also confirm my concept regarding the war between Hazrat Ali (R) and Ayesha (R), War between Hazrat Ali(R) and Mu’awiya as well as the event of Karbala, that they are all fictitious and created by those who distorted the history of Islam for some reason. (This too is my assumption and I may be wrong here)  
 
All I can say is that my confusion is still there but I am sure we will get to a conclusion soon.
Comments by: Junaid On: 1/4/2011

 
46.Dear Brother Junaid,  
 
I was trying to solve the puzzle that persists within your perspective of early Islamic period, and I understand that it is because of two elements:-  
 
1. You, with your very sincere expectations, keep applying Quranic discipline on early historical events and you aspire to view history as a true reflection of the Divine Kingdom as established under the Prophet pbuh and his companion elders. Your frequent quotations from Quran testify to this conclusion.  
 
2. You wish to compare historical incidents to Quranic narrations and yearn to discover that things were being conducted under Quranic guidelines. You wish to see the true effects of Quranic teachings in the state affairs or in some segments of the society. And when you find out that it was all contrary to that, and identical to modern day power politics, you become disillusioned. Is my conclusion somewhat on the right lines?  
 
Quran, my dear, is not a book of history. And it does not reflect upon our history. You quoted the verses dealing with True Believers, Hijera, Muhajireen, their followers, leaving homes behind and other sacrifices. Right? And you wanted to visualize those Momineen in our History. BUT, Has Quran given any names of those people, any time for those acts and any names of places where all that happened? Certainly not, my dear. So Quran is not narrating history which we must demand to see the evidence of in history. It is actually describing the virtues of believers without regard to time and place. It is narrating the values of sacrifice, the noble deeds applicable to the pious without a timeline.  
 
History tells us that whenever a Prophet launches a divine movement to empower the weak against the powerful tyrants, the entire society does not become devout Muslim or faithful and true followers of him. It does not happen and it has not happened before in history. That’s why the disciplines established by the Prophets within their societies always collapsed almost immediately, or started collapsing, after their departure. All such movements were short-lived, as you can see from history that tyranny always remained dominant all around regardless of those short spells. And similarly, the Muslim movement of Prophet Mohammad pbuh was also short-lived. A greater segment of society, including the former tyrant rulers of Quraish did not blend their characters with Muslim values and ideals, and lay in waiting to jump upon the first opportunity to regain power. They succeeded very soon as I have explained in detail above with some of the proper names. Our history portrays THEIR rule, not the divine rule. That’s the reason why we fail to see the genuine divine discipline on the pages of our history. It is not Islamic history. It is the history of fake Muslims --- of those who called themselves Muslims, but in the garb of Islam they resurrected the old Pagan Religion of Arabs from the pre-Islamic times. Therefore, why should our history tally with Quranic injunctions?  
 
Like the survival of fake Muslims, genuine Muslims also survived and, having lost power and authority, kept striving for their existence in the hostile conditions.  
 
The history does give us hints about those communities of genuine Muslims who kept offering resistance to the Arab tyrants. In our previous comments we tried to locate those genuine Muslim communities. I was of the view that perhaps Kharjiites were one of such communities, who waged a prolonged war against Pagan Arab tyrants spanning a period of about 150 years or so. Naturally, under the Arab tyrants, they were portrayed in history as renegades, rebels, extremist Muslims, etc.  
 
I hope some of the things are now clear to you. I have tried! Some supplementary questions may have arisen in your mind now. However, if things up to the present stage of discussion are clear to you, we can together deal with side issues too……gradually…..bit by bit.  
 
 
Comments by: aurangzaib On: 1/8/2011

 
47.Salaam;  
 
Brother Aurangzaib, thanks for sharing your thoughts and thanks for replying to my post :)  
The concepts in your post are self explanatory and I can find no contradiction in my mind.  
However, your views gave me another aspect, another question and perhaps point to ponder :)  
 
Let me quote a sentence from your post;  
 
(That’s why the disciplines established by the Prophets within their societies always collapsed almost immediately, or started collapsing, after their departure. All such movements were short-lived, as you can see from history that tyranny always remained dominant all around regardless of those short spells.) by auranzaib  
 
I do agree with your views and perhaps that is why prophets were sent regularly and messages were revealed frequently in order to re-direct the lost nations towards the right path.  
My question is that since the sequence has ended with a statement that no prophet will come after Muhammad (S)  
and Quran is the final message for mankind, what is going to happen now? How will these lost nations be guided again? Who will re-direct these people to the right path?  
 
Note: I would also like to have your comments on what I said in my last post;  
 
(I do believe that Hazrat Othman(R) and Hazrat Omar(R) couldn't have appointed wrong people as Generals or governors. (However this is only my assumption and I may be wrong here).  
These verses also confirm my concept regarding the war between Hazrat Ali (R) and Ayesha (R), War between Hazrat Ali(R) and Mu’awiya as well as the event of Karbala, that they are all fictitious and created by those who distorted the history of Islam for some reason.) by Junaid  
 
Please share your views on this if you don't mind :)
Comments by: Junaid On: 1/9/2011

 
48.Dear Junaid, Please refer below link where concept of khatam NABI is discussed at lenght.  
 
http://aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=779  
 
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 1/9/2011

 
49.Dear Junaid, Please refer below link where concept of khatam NABI is discussed at lenght.  
 
http://aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=779  
 
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 1/9/2011

 
50.Salaam;  
Brother Mubashir, thank you for providing the link for such an informative discussion.  
 
I would like to mention that the views presented by Dr. Qamar does reflect a scholastic approach towards the concept and I am not in a position to comment due to lack of sufficient knowledge in this regard.  
However, my question still remains unanswered.  
 
Let me Quote Dr. Qamar and then I'll rephrase my question accordingly;  
 
Quote: (Nabi is a strong personality and implementer of the Wahi. You may study all those verses and suras where the word Nabi has appeared and you will find him :  
- As Giving orders  
- Making decisions  
- Appointing commanders  
- Head of the states  
So Rasool can not be a Rasool without Wahi as he is amessenger of Wahi. And Nabi can not be a Nabi without Wahi as he is the implementer of Wahi .)  
 
Having seen the description of Nabi and rasool, lemme share my thoughts;  
 
We all know what the evil forces (during abbasid era, umayyad era and lateron) did by corrupting the true essence of Quran and changing it's concepts by false translations and interpretations. Starting from 8th century onwards till today, I can not see any significant effort in terms of implementation of wahi or in terms of rebuilding the true image of Islam or redefining the true essence of Quran.  
As brother aurangzaib shared some information regarding Mu'tazilis, Kharjites, etc. we are still not in a position to confirm and to accept anything as 100% authentic. Likewise, we cannot see a 100% comprehensive and authentic translation or interpretation of Quran since last 1400 years or so.  
 
My question is;  
Who restored the system as defined in Quran during last 1400 years by;  
- Giving orders  
- Making decisions  
- Appointing commanders  
- Head of the states  
Where and when was this system functional during last 1400 years in it's true form?  
Why we can't see any significant and authentic interpretation of Quran since last 14 centuries?  
 
If that didn't happen during last 1400 years after prophet Muhammad (S) passed away, shall we consider that all those who lived during these 1400 years including ourselves as un-informed ones?  
 
 
Comments by: Junaid On: 1/10/2011

 
51.Dear Junaid, you are correct it was a tough one and this concept of Khatam nabi was a very basic from very start of our life. Would request you to see the possible impacts with this change.  
 
Please find below link for continuation of this topic to analyse impacted areas..  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?QID=788  
 
Note : Would request you to post your comment under above link so that we can have your scholarly and intellectual thoughts under same chain.  
 
Thanks,  
Mubashir Syed.
Comments by: Mubashir Syed On: 1/10/2011

 
52.Salaam;  
 
Brother Mubashir, I would like to thank you once again for directing me to another very informative discussion.  
Please allow me to repeat my question here in reply to your post at the following thread;  
 
http://www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?MID=4&SID=40&QID=788&MSG=  
 
My question was, and still is;  
 
Who restored the system as defined in Quran during last 1400 years by;  
- Giving orders  
- Making decisions  
- Appointing commanders  
- Head of the states  
Where and when was this system functional during last 1400 years in it's true form?  
Why we can't see any significant and authentic interpretation of Quran since last 14 centuries?  
 
If that didn't happen during last 1400 years after prophet Muhammad (S) passed away, shall we consider that all those who lived during these 1400 years including ourselves as un-informed ones?  
 
Let me quote what you said in your post;  
( As per my understanding until now, Prophets were intellects of their era's who were in search of a concept to establish a system which can bring peace and enhancement of human kind. And they might have looked all the possibilities to extract the message for humanity and conclusion of research is WAHI.  
WAHI in simple words I think is conclusive message based on research. Like Quran( Message of Quran) in our hands is WAHI and we need to research Quran to get maximum WAHI out of it ) by Mubashir  
 
I must say that the concept is quite clear in order to comprehend. However, I am very much interested in having some insight from anyone who can, regarding how and when this WAHI was properly extracted or translated.  
 
May I assume that Mohammad (S) was the last Rasool and nabi since Wahi (In form of Quran) was never explained clearly and that the system (in it's true form) was never implemented after him. Rather a man made religion based on books of hadiths got implemented and still being followedby almost 1.5 billion people, in totally an un-challenged and un-questioned form.  
 
May I also assume that considering the flaws in our society, Intolerance in our people and the rigidness of minds today, apparently there is no chance of proper extraction and interpretation of Wahi in near future and if somehow translation becomes a possibility, implementation of the system in it's true form still remains a big question mark.
Comments by: Junaid On: 1/10/2011

 
53.Dear Junaid ! Is there any Quranic evidence that, the state based on divine system had been established in any era, at any part of the land, which you are looking for (in the heap of historical record). The task of nabi /rasool is to keep on conveying the divine message to the people with out looking the out come( results),WA ZAKKIR INNA MA' ANTA MUZAKKIR LASTA ALAIHIM BE MUSAITIR.We believe the YOUM AL QIYAMA but we don't know even the prophet doesn't know its accurate time.There will be YOUM ASSAA' /YOUM AL QIYAMA /YOUM ADDEEN (as we are assured by the qura'n) eg 3/25, but don't know the era (WA YASALOONAKA UNISSAATI AYYANA MURSAHA FIMA ANTA MIN ZIKRAHA, ILA RABBIKA MUNTAHAHA).............. Plz don’t measure the time with your scale,Mumineen are sure for the establishment of the Quranic welfare state, the one you are looking for (youm al qiyama).I also agree with the Aurangzaib’s opinions that “That’s why the disciplines established by the Prophets within their societies always collapsed almost immediately, or started collapsing, after their departure. All such movements were short-lived, as you can see from history that tyranny always remained dominant all around regardless of those short spells. And similarly, the Muslim movement of Prophet Mohammad pbuh was also short-lived. What happened when MUSES left his qoum for a short time (even the HAROON was present among them), how the deen was devastated by the religious intrigues. But don’t compare the above mentioned interim/short/minor/time being out come with the assured quranic state established at globe(YOUM ASSAA’/YOUM ALQIYAMA)
Comments by: naeem sheikh On: 1/10/2011

 
54.Salaam;  
Brother Naeem. you said;  
(Dear Junaid ! Is there any Quranic evidence that, the state based on divine system had been established in any era, at any part of the land, which you are looking for (in the heap of historical record).  
 
My answer is NO. I am yet to see an evidence for a100% effective implementation in the past. I have tried my level best to search through all aspects of history but perhaps my limited knowledge and intellect is probably a barrier between me and the truth.  
 
Dear brother, your views carry some logical weight and I can find no reason to contradict your statement.  
However I would request you to please share you understanding and interpretation for the terms;  
 
YOUM ASSAA' /YOUM AL QIYAMA /YOUM ADDEEN  
 
YOUM ADDEEN has already been explained in Quran (82:19)  
 
But I would still like to have your interpretation of the term.  
 
Comments by: Junaid On: 1/10/2011

 
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